Another man loves my wife

[D+D]

Yes! I can't answer about relationship with a boyfriend because I've never known one of my wife's lovers. That's what is so intriguing to me about your situation. There was a thread on here a few months back about could a woman love two men at once. Many hotwives commented on this thread. My impression from most of their comments was yes, but no one can take hubby's place. Maybe someone will remember that thread and point it out? Because hotwives responded, it was very informative and real and would answer many of your questions as it did mine.

[DavaoMike]

Another take on Juli's comment is her fear of ruining her current relationship with Brian, which she apparently finds very fulfilling, even if not in a sexual way. What she fears is that, once they have sex, the sexual connection will define the relationship. Thus, if either party chose to end the sexual aspect of the relationship, that would likely mean the end of the relationship altogether, or at least in emotionally intimate aspects. It's very difficult for people to move backwards in such situations.

DM

[bubbajack]

I do think there is a very good possibility that all three of these lovely people can transition fairly smoothly to a mutual acknowledgement of an openly triadic structure of affection and sexual expression.

Juli is probably not - at this stage anyway - interested in hotwifing of a type where a wife or a couple embarks on sexual adventures with other men for the sake of sheer sexual adventure - what mrsbubba and I refer to as "Fucking for Fun". I think Mark's diagnosis of her state is correct: she loves both of these men and is probably attracted, secretly and subconsciously and without any practical hope of its realization, to a dreamed-of "polyamorous" structure as a motivating ideal.

The often hard-to-address "elephant in the room" is, precisely, sex, of course. According to a marriage counselor friend of mine, the great majority of couples he sees who are having sex-based problems cannot talk about them directly in sex-relevant terms and many (often futile) sessions are spent talking around sex and never getting down to the explicit sex-work that needs to be done. The individuals' respective reaction-formations are often piled so high and deep over even the simplest of sex issues that careful and delicate heavy-equipment excavation is necessary and, all too often, never accomplished. I see a bit of a tendency in Mark's reports of Juli's (repeated, if not characteristic) "selective admission of personal sex facts" process, for her to have stacked up a defense or two against revealment - pretty normal for our benighted species, of course.

In that light, there seems to loom up in particular one potentially serious complication affecting the prospects for "smooth landing in polyamory" here: I believe there remains a good possibility that Juli and Brian have already had sex one or more times and either (i) they have agreed to stop fucking and to bury the reality of the event(s) or (ii) they are continuing now and then in a deeply clandestine way - not even really admitting to themselves that it is "part of" their relationship. Such a secret could be too hard for them to admit to Mark unless he is able to hit upon a way of telling them he understands and even desires that they express their love for one another in any way that is true for them - including any and all past, present and future sex that they may have engaged in or may yet engage in.

I don't know how to advise setting up a communication like that so that the issues can be dealt with safely and productively. My experience of the way in which my wife's past extramarital sexual wandering* emerged for explicit handling between us (through hotwifing ) was very lucky.

I wish the same good luck to Mark, Juli and Brian.


*OK - for the hard liners, "cheating".

[Wookie]

Well it's clear that Juli and Brian's preference would be to include Mark as part of a polyamorous triad, which kind of goes against his stated desire to have a once-a-week fuckbuddy. Once-a-week fuckbuddies don't evolve from a six month period of sharing your deepest and most secret emotions with one another....something else does.

Whether that something else is amenable to Mark is really only for him to know. And to what shape the triad would eventually evolve into would likely require some compromise from all sides and end up in a shape which wasn't necessarily blueprinted by anyone in advance.

[D+D]

I may have this figured wrong, but I feel that Mark and Julie have a very healthy marriage. The inclusion of another person that she has deep feelings for does not necessarily indicate that it will develop into a polyamorous type relationship. They meet for lunch once per week. The addition would be sex. Even if they fucked 2x a week, it still would not necessarily be polyamorous. I think she loves Mark far too much to take him where he doesn't want to go.

[Wookie]

It very well and likely is. My point was that achieving that end result would necessitate a very open communication with expectations clearly conveyed. Brian looking for Juli to cheat on Mark with him portends well for it transitioning to a sexual relationship but on the other hand does not portend well for the type of communication and trust that would be necessary to make it work in practice.

Not a showstopper by any means though. I'm sure everyone would have different methods of the best way to handle it.

[Samanthasman]

I wonder a lot about how and when it's possible for a woman to love two men.

I beleive it comes down to what sort of love it is. Love may or may not be a zero sum gain.

My wife was with another man before me. When she started dating me she loved us both. As things progressed she loved me more and loved him less until ultimately she left him for me.

When she ultimately fell in love with a BF I asked myself - what sort of love is this. When it started to feel like she was compartmentalizing us and wanting to make his compartment bigger while making mine smaller, I concluded that I no longer enjoyed the situation...

[Wookie]

I think that it depends of the person, where they are in life and what they want. For example someone might be perfectly fine with Mark's position here while it just wouldn't work for someone else. Or it may work fine for both but Juli ultimately can't handle it. Or everyone is onboard but life intercepts the ball on the five yard line.

Look at okcupid - it's basically designed to match people up based on analytics... but these people still go on dates and there is still a staggeringly large failure rate. Humans are so complex that questions like that can only be answered by two (well I guess three in many of our cases) people.

Even here there are differences - some folks here may only HW while on vacation and there are others who keep a metal box around their dick and sleep in the guest room, happy as a clam, while his wife lives and loves her boyfriend in the master bedroom.

Life can be pretty fun.

[co-husband]

Thank you for all the comments. The great thing about this forum is I read the thoughts of men and woman who have much more experience at this sort of lifestyle than I do, and I learn so much each time I come here. I can see in each of your comments, things that I think do apply to the situation with me, Juli and Brian.

Reading the comments from Wookie, D+D and Samanthasman...I agree and had pretty much already concluded that Juli can love both me and Brian at the same time, but it's a different type of love. Juli and I have been married 33 years and have children, grandchildren and a shared life that is awesome. Our love is deep and I think the only way that Juli has let herself get so close to Brian, and frankly the only way that I have not intervened in their relationship, is precisely because our marriage is so secure. I think neither one of us fear losing what we have. Perhaps 20 years ago that would have been different. As a younger couple, we may have been too insecure to introduce another man into our relationship. And the risk of another man getting Juli pregnant would have been a factor too. So now it's much easier to experience a 3 way relationship with another man. (in another post I can tell you more about Juli's philosophy about condoms lol. Pretty interesting I think).

And like Samanthasman, I did have a similar situation when Juli and I got married. Her first husband had left her, then 5 months later Juli and I started dating. We were married almost exactly 1 year after their divorce. While she loved me, she admittedly also was still in love with her ex husband. And I understood that. She wasn't able to just turn flip a switch and stop loving a man she had recently been married to. But gradually her love for him waned and her love for me grew. So I know that she can (and does) love me and Brian at the same time, only on a different level.

Also the comment by DavaoMike I think is spot on. Knowing Juli as I do, she isn't impulsive especially when it comes to relationships. I know she enjoys her relationship with Brian (I would describe it as an intimate friendship but without the sex), and in her own words to me this week..."the relationship changes when two people have sex". So I think you're right that she is going to be careful about adding sex to her relationship with Brian. Based on the conversation I had with her this week, I'm convinced it will happen at some point, but only when Juli feels they are ready for it.
I think that was Bubbajack's point, that it will eventually transition into an intimate friendship that includes sex between Juli and Brian.

I feel better about it all today. The 2 days following my talk with Juli, my mind was racing in many directions. Honestly I had some fear and concerns, but today I feel much more calm and am looking forward to this patiently playing out. Juli hasn't mentioned it since we talked, but last night we had sex and she was more animated than she usually is. Just to share with you some very private info, Last night Juli insisted that she wanted to have her orgasm first, so she masturbated using her vibrator as I watched and waited. As soon as she came, she took me inside and she came some more. Of course I came too. So between her toys, me and I'm sure her thoughts about Brian, it was obvious she enjoyed herself last night.

Mark

[lagercandle2014]

Mark I think it will eventually happen with Juli and Brian, Just a question for you though do you think Brian will be happy with once a week sex with Juli I don't think he will, do you think like me he will push Juli for more, how will Juli feel about this will she want more, think you both need to discuss this as I think it's very important to the safety of your marriage, you say every thing is strong between you but you never know what might happen once they become sexually intimate.

You need to make it quite clear with Juli about how far you are prepared to go or what is reasonablly acceptable as I don't think you want it to go to far and you start to feel you are no longer the main man in her life be careful my friend.

Regards LC

[Lenny]

I fell in love with my wife's best friend. She was married and still is. I do not play cuckold games. I made her my girlfriend who stayed with me for weeks at a time and went on vacations with me. She even allowed my wife to join us in bed and do things to her. She was my girlfriend for 38 years and we still love each other although separated by distance now.

I will never understand why her husband enjoyed this and all attempts to find out what their deal was ended up with me being told not to ask as she wanted to keep her relationships separately. I have cuckolded other men but it was usually for a few times and then the woman or I moved on once the excitement of sex with a new person fades. I even socialized with the cuck about 6 times and once he took his wife to Vegas to hand over to me while he did his own thing, whatever that was. He never wanted to watch and we tested that but he freaked when his wife started undressing. His wife only had two rules. Call him after sex to talk about what we did and never take me to their home. The funny part was that she often lied to him about what we did to feed his fantasy. I wonder how many other cuckoldresses did the same.

When I was with him socially, he never talked about sex or acknowledged that I was having regular sex with his wife. We would just talk about regular things. When she was with him, I did not act intimate with her. He was hers when they were together. I never wanted to break up a marriage but unfortunately their wives always did and eventually divorced their cucks. Perils of the fetish I guess. However, this couple is still together. Maybe because he is a doctor and makes a lot of money because my gf is not the domestic type. She orders out her morning coffee and never once cooked me a mean. My wife made her bed and cooked for her and cleaned up her room.

So it can work out as long as you remain excited but if the excitement fades and your wife refuses to stop seeing her lover, who may be better than you in all ways, then you have a problem. What happens is that your wife is with her lover only for the fun parts of life while with you, there is the boring day to day stuff to deal with that is in all of our lives. Plus her lover is always treating her well, making her feel attractive and desired, something married men do not do enough. Her lover is always showing her a good time while you are not. That is the danger.

The wife of every cuckold I was with, loved their husbands but in a way that was more because he provided a nice safety net for her and allowed her to date without guilt. I had the same arrangement with my wife. Why leave my wife who let me have lots of sex with others and took care of my home for me plus loved me? The wife of a cuckold has her cake and eats it too. Sometimes the wives were in love with their husband's bank books. Whatever the reasons, each one was looking for someone to leave her husband for. Even my long time girlfriend asked me to divorce my wife and marry her. Not once, but three times. Why not, I showed her a good time and could care less if she did not cook and clean. She was there to have fun with, not marry or live with.

So you have my side of the story now and the dangers that can pop up assuming that this is a serious post, because so many are not. Any of you ever meet a cuckold in real life? Bet few have so do not think everyone is doing what you read on sex sites. Love is a very powerful emotion and every time your wife has sex with the same guy, Oxytocin is released which binds them emotionally together. Look at how many powerful men have ruined their lives because of sex. Do not ever believe that promises and rules will stop your wife from falling in love. They will not and I know a few people who found out the hard way.

P.S. The long time cuck was married once before to a women who cuckolded him. She left him for her lover and yet he married another women who wanted to cuckold him. She would have also left him if she had the chance. I have been cuckolding men for longer than some of you have lived and do not understand it. I do not understand why my wife got excited when I dated other women and even loved them. To this day she cannot explain it other than to say it was fun. I never look a gift horse in the mouth so I never pressed for more.

[co-husband]

Hi LC and Lenny..Thank you for your input and advice!

I have no real world experience being a cuckold, other than the past few months when my wife has basically been dating our friend. At least lunch dates once a week. It's a surreal feeling being around him now. We both know he is in love with my wife, but we never talk about that. Like you said Lenny, when he and I are together socially its pretty much business as usual between us. He is a nice man and good friend, and he has always been respectful around me and Juli. He just has this intimate relationship with her (currently lunches and texts only). I think that even the time he asked Juli if she would go to the dinner theater with him was more a testing of the waters to see if a physical relationship was even a possibility, more than it was him trying to get her to cheat. Had she been willing to go overnight with him, she wouldn't have done it without talking to me first and me signing off on it.

I know too that it is hard to understand a cuckold's perspective. I have a hard time understanding it myself. In a way I'm already in the cuckold role because another man is dating my wife and I have done nothing to stop it. It probably emboldens Brian that I have said nothing to him about how I feel that he has expressed love for Juli. This is why I asked the question in a previous post about how boyfriends of married women view the husbands. Is there a complete loss of respect for a husband who let's another man get pleasure from his wife? Just the little bit of sharing that I have done (letting him develop an emotional relationship with my wife) has honestly been a big turn on for me. I can't explain it either. It really doesn't make sense that a husband could let another man treat his wife as if he was his (the bf) own.

I can certainly understand the potential dangers of this type of relationship. And like Lenny said, whenever a man and woman have intercourse, the chemicals released in their bodies bond them emotionally. That's what Juli was telling me when she said that sex even once changes the relationship forever between any man and woman. I know the very first time (if it happens) that Brian penetrates Juli, they will have a new and stronger emotional bond that can never be taken back. It's both exciting and scarey at the same time.

Mark

[co-husband]

I meant to answer LC's question too. I think my limit would be once a week sex between Juli and Brian. I wouldn't want it to develop into more than that. More like a weekly mercy fuck I guess. I really don't think Brian would press for more than the boundaries that Juli and I would set. Also I have thought about it and I wouldn't want to be present for their sex. I'd want them to have their own private time and not even sure I would want to hear about Brian's performance in bed or how he and I compare physically.
That's just my thoughts at the moment anyway.

Mark

[Wookie]

Out of curiousity your wife is developing strong feelings for him so it would be anything other than a 'mercy' fuck. It would be two people in love consummating that love.

If that's what you're comfortable with, what you think Juli is comfortable with and what you're confident that your relationship will sustain (and flourish as a result from) then that's great. But the person that you need to be the most honest with throughout this is yourself.

What happens is Brian and Juli spend all Friday night together and she calls you asking if she can stay over until Sunday? Talk is through where you're at with this from a pragmatic standpoint, pitfalls and all. The reason I ask you in particular is that you were gung-ho poly, and now I'm not sure what you've pivoted to.

[co-husband]

Wookie yes I see what you mean. Part of my evolution has been my lack of understanding of what the terms really mean. By "poly" I just meant a 3-way relationship between me, Juli and Brian. In my mind we have that already in a limited way. My term "mercy fuck" I guess was meant more that I would want them to limit their sex to once a week. And you're right, they actually would be making love rather than it being a simple "fuck". I'm sure my definitions will continue to be fine-tuned as I learn more about the lifestyle. With the new developments this week after talking to Juli, I realize that she understands a lot more about the pitfalls than I do. Her experience in her first marriage has made her cautious, and rightly so. I know I'm thinking more with my penis, probably mixing my own fantasy with reality.

I think Juli probably does enjoy the emotional attention that Brian gives her. Being treated like a girlfriend and not like a wife I'm sure is enjoyable for her. And I think too she likes helping a friend who is alone, but I also think we're probably past the point where it was a divorced friend grieving over the loss of his marriage. I think he has moved on and placed himself into our marriage to a limited extent. Just so much to process. Makes my head spin lol.
And I realize more all the time that if sex is introduced into their relationship, this 3-way bond will suddenly be on a whole new level.

Mark

[Wookie]

That's awesome that you're evolving. I consider it an honor assisting, in whatever small way that we can, honing your perspective. You may get some tough questions up front from is, but you're probably better chewing on them now with the benefit of perspective than six months from now on the midst of an emotional crisis.

My opinion that you're playing with fire is strong though. Brian isn't out for a weekly fuck, he's transferring his monogamous bond that he had with his ex-wife onto Juli. Sex WILL change everything, it's an evolutionary tool used to bond humans. Now your marriage is strong however as we've seen with others here, it's not necessarily losing the marriage but fundamentally changing the dynamic. For many that dynamic can be positive.

My fear for you is that the situation as it stands is infinitely more complex than trying to fuck someone without such an emotionally dense bond with. As SamanthasMan says, the benefit of the first fuck is that it's essentially a mulligan for a smart couple of something goes wrong. With this one, you ain't getting that.

[bradisalpha]

Wookie yes I see what you mean. Part of my evolution has been my lack of understanding of what the terms really mean. By "poly" I just meant a 3-way relationship between me, Juli and Brian. In my mind we have that already in a limited way. My term "mercy fuck" I guess was meant more that I would want them to limit their sex to once a week. And you're right, they actually would be making love rather than it being a simple "fuck". I'm sure my definitions will continue to be fine-tuned as I learn more about the lifestyle. With the new developments this week after talking to Juli, I realize that she understands a lot more about the pitfalls than I do. Her experience in her first marriage has made her cautious, and rightly so. I know I'm thinking more with my penis, probably mixing my own fantasy with reality.

I think Juli probably does enjoy the emotional attention that Brian gives her. Being treated like a girlfriend and not like a wife I'm sure is enjoyable for her. And I think too she likes helping a friend who is alone, but I also think we're probably past the point where it was a divorced friend grieving over the loss of his marriage. I think he has moved on and placed himself into our marriage to a limited extent. Just so much to process. Makes my head spin lol.
And I realize more all the time that if sex is introduced into their relationship, this 3-way bond will suddenly be on a whole new level.

Mark

Mark,

I think an awful lot of information has been shared on here and a lot of ways to look at your situation. I am going to go out on a limb and give you my opinion !! But, understand ... It is only my opinion !!

Brian - I believe he wants Juli very badly !! He wants to make love to her and seduce her ... As he is doing now !! He is dreaming of fucking her. I don't believe he wants to run away with her and marry her .. I just believe he wants a love affair. I also do not believe that he wants a threesome with you involved. He just wants her !! He doesn't care if you know or not ... In fact he would rather that you do not know so he can have that little extra excitement with Juli when you are not around and still act like your friend when you are around and share his little secret with Juli.

Juli - She enjoys the romance part of being a "girlfriend" and is infactuated with the fact that he "loves" her. She loves the attention and loves teasing and flirting with him. It is giving her youth back to her excitement of dating without all the pressures of being married and keeping a household and family. She can open up with him and discuss different things than she discusses with Husband. She gets very excited at his attention and even just a touch on the arm makes her wet... Let alone a kiss (has he kissed her yet ??) She dreams about fucking him and plays that out when she is fucking her husband. Her requesting the dildo first the other night was probably feeding her fantasy of fucking Brian.. And cumming ... And then coming home and fucking her husband and cumming again. She knows that sex will change the relationship and that has held her back. She doesn't want it to change ... She doesn't want to run off with Brian ... She just wants him to remain her boyfriend .. With no other attachments ... And FUCK him. She also does not want a threesome ... She wants her boyfriend all to herself ... To meet and fuck when she can and then come home to her husband and her real world. She is just yearning for that little bit of fantasy world to enjoy as often as she can. She LOVES him lusting after her !!

Mark - he loves the fact they Julie is turning on another man and enjoys the tension and excitement of imagining her sucking his cock.. Fucking him ... Taking his cum in her pussy ... And then coming home to him and making very HOT love. He enjoys her looking forward to their dates ... Dressing nicely to impress him ... Seeing that sparkle in her eyes as she talks about their lunches ... Watching her enjoy her life and act like a teenager again. The first time she fucks Brian and then comes home and fucks him he will feel the slippery sensation of a used pussy... Sloppy seconds !! That is addicting !! He will them be looking forward to her dates as much as she is. This is making him very horny ... Every time he thinks about it ... His mind drifts to Julie and Brian many times every day and he is craving hearing her finally come home and say "I fucked Brian today" !! His cock will be hard as a rock and he will cum immediately the first time he slides into her silky cum filled pussy. He has no desire to have a threesome ... He just wants to feel the same excitement as Juli when she is with Brian. When he knows that she is on a lunch date with Brian it is all he can think about. His cock gets hard ... And he can't wait to come home and fuck her.

Conclusion: I am not sure !!! Lol !! There are many variations to go forward with. The clear cut version would be for Mark to convince Julie how much it turns him on for her to fuck Brian and show her his excitement. Talk about it ... Share her excitement with her. Let her know exactly how turned on she is making you. Let her begin teasing you about it and talking to you more as a cuckold. Play games such as "no .. You can't have me tonight until after Brian fucks me tomorrow". Do you realize how hot you BOTH will be until tomorrow ?? There is so much fun for the two of you as a team seducing Brian. You will both be seducing him together !!! And I would let Brian continue to think he is fucking Juli behind your back. It increases the sensuality of the situation and takes away any embarrassing feelings when you are all together in a normal setting ... It lets Juli hold him off from being overly possessive ... It keeps her "dating" scenario alive .. It adds the forbidden feeling to it and heightens the anticipation and excitement. It keeps it on the same level it is on now !! They are texting each other and talking on the phone or when you are not there. That is exciting all three of you !!! You seem to have the winning formula and only have to add sex to it now ... Wow, that sounds awful simple, doesn't it ?? Think about this... "You have the winning formula ... Just add sex !!".

The scenario can go in a lot of directions from there but that is the basics. What are your thoughts, Mark ??

Brad

[D+D]

I agree with most of what Brad says except to let Brian think that Julie is cheating on you. That's one thing that I personally could not take. I may be a cuck , but I still have a little dignity. As for as your feelings. Who can explain it? I can't. Wanting another man to sleep with our wives? Crazy... have to be a cuck to know what we feel. I don't feel like less of a man, I just have a kink. I also like for my wife to feel wanted and attractive to other men.

[lagercandle2014]

Mark I agree with D+D don't ever let Brian think you know nothing about what is going on, this is your one shure way you have to keep some sort of control over him, he's on his own mission here and don't you think he is as close a friend as you think he isn't, he wants to fuck your wife pure and simple.

Btw the way it was me who first suggested it would be like giving him a mercy fuck to you, but I also said I was not shure that was the right word but it seemed to fit, now after reading all that has happened or come to light from that time I'm not so shure that it would be a mercy fuck that's why i urge caution and for you and Juli to agree the way forward you will both be happy with, at the end of the day it's your marriage that needs to survive after it happens so you both need to very shure everything is discussed and covered.

Just advice my friend always with you and Juli's marriage safety first.

For more great advice read Mrs's Truckstar reply in the hotwife section titled hotwife boundries /limits/rules on page 2. it may help you both as she is one of the most respected people on this forum.


Regards LC

[D+D]

Yes Mark, a woman's perspective is so very, very important. We men just don't get it sometimes sadly to say. We mean well, but we're men. What can I say? Way to few of the of the verified and experienced hot wives post here. Many times they have been treated rudely so I guess that I don't blame them. Their input in the past was very helpful to me. Read Mrs. T's post and pm her if you have a question. She has good information.

[D+D]

Update?

[co-husband]

Hi guys...really no new updates since I talked with Juli last week. Just giving her some time to think about things. She IS with Brian today for lunch, so maybe after she gets home I might do some more encouraging. I'll let you know.

Also, I have posted a few more pics of her in the "My Wife Juli" post. Hope you enjoy her.

Mark

[drwifepleaser]

Has she fucked Brian yet?

[Artimas]

I think the proper question is 'how many times has she fucked him' not if.

[bubbajack]

I think the proper question is 'how many times has she fucked him' not if.

This seems to be one factual premise that Mark refuses to entertain as a hypothesis - even though it (1) has a non-negligible probability of being true (whatever Juli or Brian may say); and (2) opens up a critically different set of potentialities for what would come next, following the revelation.

I think Mark feels at some deep, probably un- or semi-conscious, intuitive level that they are fucking already and is trying to salvage something of his own dignity, his marriage - and, perhaps, his record as a law-abiding citizen who has not killed his faithless wife and his old friend her lover - by entertaining some possibilities of forging a relational structure among the three of them going forward that could keep everyone alive, mutually cordial, and fucking.

The problem with Mark's not recognizing and dealing explicitly in his plans with the possibility that they have already broken faith with him is that he risks having prepared for a range of possible negotiated structures, but having nothing that would be useful for a friendly workout if the post-revelation scenario requires the parties to deal with a pack of intentional lies.

I am not saying that there is no possible satisfactory-to-all outcome here, even if there has been lots of sex between Juli and Brian already. But if that probability is not part of Mark's planning it will be that much greater a challenge for him - and them - to pick their way through the chaotic feelings and reactions that covert extramarital sex always seems to arouse when revealed - both in the betrayers and in the betrayed.

I wish them all well and I hope that Mark is right. But my sense is that there is a logical conditioning of what tends to happen among particular real people in real personal relations by what we all know happens all the time everywhere in the world - and that logic says something else. To be sure, there may be no physical evidence either way that Mark can point to; but there is all the same a logical structure to what is known to be going on that points with some limited but not negligible confidence to more, which may be hidden from some perspectives, like Mark's in this case, but not, for all that, necessarily nonexistent.