Cognitive Complications

[Rooter48]

Reposted from Stag/Vixen Forum:

I am the special guest star with a couple, all of us in our 70s. I was invited by him on a dating app and admitted health and performance issues. He wanted his wife satisfied. He got her into non-monogamy ten years ago. They chose me and we have enjoyed fairly conventional MFM. He loves the creampie. She and I have developed a strong connection and we like each other.

Now Bob has been diagnosed with dementia and has exhibited all the predictable personality changes including a rejection of me and swinging. She misses me and has the predictable conflicts. She and I have not tried to meet privately and I am hoping his condition sorts itself out one way or another. I have informed him I don't want to take his wife. He offered to meet and sort things out, but has ghosted me. She and I are still discreetly in touch. She is adamant that no one can tell her who she can fuck. Basically, he has gone back on their contract.

Has anyone experience a withdrawal of consent like this? Is it really non-consent given his condition? I want to see her and she wants to see me.

[ugcp]

That is an unfortunate situation, but the reality is that dementia situations still really only go in one direction. His condition will likely deteriorate over the next 2 years, with some rapid points which will markedly change him. He will have periods of lucidity and periods of confusion, with the former becoming more rare.

I think this is less a question of nonmonogamy, and more a question of living with and caring for someone with dementia. There are support groups, including online communities, that can provide general advice which may be helpful. One frequent concept is in the area of ethical support for caregivers, since on the one hand they feel devoted to the person with dementia, but on the other they still need to live their lives or risk caregiver burnout.

Eventually he will likely need professional assistance, with a nurse coming to help, which will give opportunities for you and the wife socializing. After that, he will need more permanent care, which likely involves housing him in a facility, which further offers opportunity for you and her. Of course it will be fraught will emotional impacts, but this is the messiness of life.

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

That is an unfortunate situation, but the reality is that dementia situations still really only go in one direction. His condition will likely deteriorate over the next 2 years, with some rapid points which will markedly change him. He will have periods of lucidity and periods of confusion, with the former becoming more rare.

I think this is less a question of nonmonogamy, and more a question of living with and caring for someone with dementia. There are support groups, including online communities, that can provide general advice which may be helpful. One frequent concept is in the area of ethical support for caregivers, since on the one hand they feel devoted to the person with dementia, but on the other they still need to live their lives or risk caregiver burnout.

Eventually he will likely need professional assistance, with a nurse coming to help, which will give opportunities for you and the wife socializing. After that, he will need more permanent care, which likely involves housing him in a facility, which further offers opportunity for you and her. Of course it will be fraught will emotional impacts, but this is the messiness of life.

Brilliant analysis. I doubt I could have said it better myself.

[Christinebitg]

That is an unfortunate situation, but the reality is that dementia situations still really only go in one direction. His condition will likely deteriorate over the next 2 years, with some rapid points which will markedly change him. He will have periods of lucidity and periods of confusion, with the former becoming more rare.

I think this is less a question of nonmonogamy, and more a question of living with and caring for someone with dementia. There are support groups, including online communities, that can provide general advice which may be helpful. One frequent concept is in the area of ethical support for caregivers, since on the one hand they feel devoted to the person with dementia, but on the other they still need to live their lives or risk caregiver burnout.

Eventually he will likely need professional assistance, with a nurse coming to help, which will give opportunities for you and the wife socializing. After that, he will need more permanent care, which likely involves housing him in a facility, which further offers opportunity for you and her. Of course it will be fraught will emotional impacts, but this is the messiness of life.

All true. It's definitely a one way street. There will be ups and downs.

But the timetable is by no means dependable. It could be a year or two. Or it could be 5 to 10 years.

Early onset Alzheimer's can progress very rapidly. I've seen it happen start to finish in about 18 months. But this isn't early onset, it's more of a "standard" timing. It could take much longer, hence my 5 to 10 years comment.

Only time will tell. I wish the Original Poster good luck. I'm sorry that the situation has turned so much for the worse, and so quickly. You have my sympathies.

[SSQ]

I am so sorry. Strictly on the topic of consent, my vote would be that since mental health conditions tend to remove our ability to give informed consent, that dementia would be a withdrawal of consent regardless of what he actually says.

I don't envy any of you this situation; I've seen so many friends and relatives deal with caregiver burnout. I wish you all the best.

[Des 31]

Dementia is a particularly sad outcome but seems to becoming more common among the population. I'm told by a medical authority a test can be given to determine if one is genetically inclined to Alzheimer's or dementia problems at some time in their life.

I suspect most reading your posting will conclude most wives with husbands suffering from the disease, but are at heart non-monogamous, will ultimately engage in extramarital sex without disturbing her marital partner's well-being. Sex is a human need for almost all, and few people can deny their sexual needs over another whose mental faculties are declining.

I wish the three of you the best in coming to whatever decision you feel is best.

~ Des

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

Dementia is a particularly sad outcome but seems to becoming more common among the population. I'm told by a medical authority a test can be given to determine if one is genetically inclined to Alzheimer's or dementia problems at some time in their life.

I suspect most reading your posting will conclude most wives with husbands suffering from the disease, but are at heart non-monogamous, will ultimately engage in extramarital sex without disturbing her marital partner's well-being. Sex is a human need for almost all, and few people can deny their sexual needs over another whose mental faculties are declining.

I wish the three of you the best in coming to whatever decision you feel is best.

~ Des

Des, do you have a link for that test?

[Des 31]

Dementia is a particularly sad outcome but seems to becoming more common among the population. I'm told by a medical authority a test can be given to determine if one is genetically inclined to Alzheimer's or dementia problems at some time in their life.

I suspect most reading your posting will conclude most wives with husbands suffering from the disease, but are at heart non-monogamous, will ultimately engage in extramarital sex without disturbing her marital partner's well-being. Sex is a human need for almost all, and few people can deny their sexual needs over personal restrictions by another whose mental faculties are declining.

I wish the three of you the best in coming to whatever decision you feel is best.

~ Des

Des, do you have a link for that test?

Sure. I found the information is easy to find through Google. The test is known as the Alzheimer’s Disease APOE DNA Test and can be found through any search engine with those words.

This website doesn't approve of direct links as they appear in a browser; but if you replace the words "(dot)" in the red colors below with a "period" (.) character, I think the following will satisfy the monitors' restrictions:

Here's one of the links: www(dot)alzeimersdiseasedna(dot)com/alzheimers-disease-dna-test/

---- For others' information, Alzheimer's Disease has been found not to be just a result of genetics but also seems to be a result of an unhealthy diet and lack of exercise, which can lead to serious medical issues that have been linked to degenerative brain diseases.

(I'm told the reason for OHW's preference for not posting direct links to other websites as they appear in browsers is that the practice degrades the websites' position in search engines.)

~ Des

As full disclosure, I'm not a medical professional but instead just a former newspaper reporter and now an advertising writer. The information originally posted here as provided to me was by a medical professional.

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

I appreciate that. Alzheimer's took out my father and my aunt. Their father/my grandfather was killed by kidney failure, but he had been showing signs of dementia a couple of years before his death. My other two uncles on my father's side did not live long enough to develop the symptoms. Needless to say, it's something that's not far from my mind....no pun intended.

[Rooter48]

Update from the OP: We will remain on hiatus until his condition makes clear what her future will be.

[Observer1931]

"Update from the OP: We will remain on hiatus until his condition makes clear what her future will be."

A class act.

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

Update from the OP: We will remain on hiatus until his condition makes clear what her future will be.

My heart goes out to them.

[Des 31]

"Update from the OP: We will remain on hiatus until his condition makes clear what her future will be."

A class act.

There's no cure for Altzheimers's Disease, but many pharmaceuticals are prescribed to arrest or slow its development. Hopefully, those are working with your friend.

Your contributions to his wife should be appreciated if his faculties can handle it. Keep us posted.

~ Des

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

"Update from the OP: We will remain on hiatus until his condition makes clear what her future will be."

A class act.

There's no cure for Altzheimers's Disease, but many pharmaceuticals are prescribed to arrest or slow its development. Hopefully, those are working with your friend.

Your contributions to his wife should be appreciated if his faculties can handle it. Keep us posted.

~ Des

It's my understanding that there is really nothing effective out there. At best, they can slow the decline, but the decline still happens.

IMHO, right now, the Wife probably needs a friend much more than she needs a lover. It's not just the toll it takes on the person that makes Alzheimers so effing evil. It's the toll on their loved ones. Especially a spouse.

[zorro]

This is a terribly sad story. A couple of medical points: There are many types of dementia. Alzheimer's is a cause in over half of cases, but the prognosis hinges on the brain pathology that leads to dementia. Dementia is more like an objective finding, like fever. Seeing dementia does not mean anyone really knows the underlying disease, just as fever is a symptom and not a disease. Strategically, the important step is have a competent physician look hard for medically reversible causes of dementia and treat any that are found. If there are no medically reversible causes, then the reasonable assumption is that he has a neurogenerative disorder that will ultimately prove fatal.
The APOe4 test can detect people who have an abnormal gene that predisposes to Alzheimer's, but it accounts for about 10% of cases. So the gene test won't tell you much. There are PET-type scans with ligands that bind to amyloid that can pinpoint amyloid, but they usually are not covered by insurance. And yes, early-onset dementias can worsen much faster. The OP has not shared the husband's age. The range of 2 years to 15 years is accurate. There are medications that can help preserve functioning and slow deterioration, but there are no known cures for the underlying process.

Medical issues aside, there are so many social and ethical issues to sort out.
During a mild phase of dementia, the ability to understand and consent can be intact enough to still allow competent decision making. Short-term memory and doing math, paying bills and so on may suffer, but a husband with a dementia can still know what it means for his wife to fuck another man -- and perhaps even like it. Or he might not want it anymore. The concept of capacity to understand is a useful one to keep an eye on the process. As long as the husband knows what his wife is doing/wants to do and agrees to it, there is consent.
When decision-making capacity is lost, then things get very sticky. If he cannot understand, he cannot meaningfully consent. If possible, the wife and husband should talk about this future issue just like any major life choice. Ethically, he deserves the chance to voice his wishes about his wife's future sex life while he still can. He may give his blessings. Or not.

If the husband does not give his blessings, then the wife is in a tough spot. She might argue that if he does not understand anymore what she is doing, then it would not upset him. In the eyes of many of us on this site, it would be essentially cheating and a betrayal of the husband's one-time stated preferences. It would be pursuing a course of "what he doesn't know won't hurt him." That course is too close to what cheaters say to sit well with me. It may be complicated by delusional thinking that is fairly commonplace in more advanced dementias. He may think she is having an affair with another man if she has to place him in an assisted living facility or memory facility. And he may think that even if she is exclusive. And he may well forget he gave blessings for her to have others as his memory fades, and short-term memory failings become longer-term. The wife may think she is living out her husband's wishes without his remembering that he stated them.

There are no iron-clad solutions. Recording a session of an agreement might help -- or the husband may refuse to believe he was the one who was recorded. Same thing with a legal agreement. Paranoia can lead to the husband disputing that he ever signed such a thing.

I think that the most ethical path, if the wife wants to continue to have sex with others, is to do it very openly with him, allowing him the opportunity to say, "No." Even though the wife has an ultimate ethical right to decide how to use her body, there is also a moral duty to be caring and compassionate with the man she loves and has made a life with. These are competing values that really need to be attended to as things advance.

Ultimately, this situation requires great communication, compassion, and sensitivity to everyone's feelings. I don't know that "waiting for his condition to make it clear what her future will be" will work out well, for all the reasons stated above. It will delay having to make a decision, but the choice to not play now is also a decision. And then decisions still have to be made after capacity is lost. It is quite unpredictable how he will view his wife's sexual adventures as he gets worse. He may want her to play and then change his mind. Or he likely will eventually become oblivious to what she is doing. My best opinion is that communication, honesty, respect, shared decision making, and trustworthiness will prove to be the best policy, however all this plays out.

[Christinebitg]

Zorro, I could not agree more. You see to have a grasp of all the essential issues.

Unfortunately there aren't any easy choices in this situation.

[Rooter48]

Zorro, thank you for that.

[Observer1931]

How would you find support groups other than Google or any browser? Like is there a key word or such ie AA has.

[Long Lurker 34]

How would you find support groups other than Google or any browser? Like is there a key word or such ie AA has.

O1931 - For things like dementia I would start with checking out a web site for your local health unit. They may or may not have someone to talk to or there could be some links to organizations.

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

How would you find support groups other than Google or any browser? Like is there a key word or such ie AA has.

I would hit up the AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) website; and I'm sure they have a number of links.

Also, hit up your state's Department of Health/Human Services website; I'm sure they have a number of links as well.

[Rooter48]

Thank you all for that. She is a social worker with all the training and resources. I'm going to have to let them go.

[LawyerWouldbeCuckold]

Thank you all for that. She is a social worker with all the training and resources. I'm going to have to let them go.

Understandable. Perhaps that's making the best of a bad situation. I truly feel for her. My stepmother had to be (basically) a prison warden for my father for close to two years (if she turned her back, he would wander out of the house, and get lost) until she finally put him in a memory care living facility. A year after that, he had to be transitioned to a nursing home, and five months after that, he was gone. She's on a difficult road.

[D+D]

After reading all of this, I’m going to have a talk with my wife. I enjoy her seeing other men partly because she enjoys it and partly because I like being a cuckold but I can see how dementia could change our minds and how we think. I am 71 and I don’t want this to happen to my wife. I want her to have a life aside from tying herself to me all of the time. Of course I think even in a demented state I would still need her to be close, however I do want her to be able to be held and made love to and have a relationship without feeling guilty.

[fredfred2]

After reading all of this, I’m going to have a talk with my wife. I enjoy her seeing other men partly because she enjoys it and partly because I like being a cuckold but I can see how dementia could change our minds and how we think. I am 71 and I don’t want this to happen to my wife. I want her to have a life aside from tying herself to me all of the time. Of course I think even in a demented state I would still need her to be close, however I do want her to be able to be held and made love to and have a relationship without feeling guilty.

Wonderfull sentiments

[Des 31]

It's disappointing whenever a woman is denied sex by an ailing husband who cannot perform, yet at the same time she has an overwhelming need for sex. Some claim only food, shelter, and clothing are life's "real" needs. But common sense should tell anyone that sex is a necessity for most, to maintain emotional stability among other reasons.

My wife and I have sex, but I realize monogamy isn't for her. Marital sex for many becomes routine, sometimes even boring, for the woman who lives with the same man day after day. She has the freedom to date whoever, whenever, and wherever she wishes another man to fuck her. If I had the power to deny that to her, I feel it would be a form of sex slavery.

~ Des