Her Plan to Dip Toe in Hotwife Water

[slenderfish]

dip her toe in the water

To continue with your analogy, with your subtle persuasive ways, she may soon go off the top board, summersault with pike(doggy position). Hope she can eventually include you.

Liked this.

[coastalkid]

I like this question, it's timely.

I truly am following and asking sincerely.

............ it's really a wild ride and is certainly unpredictable, but overall the big picture is working out, in that a) she is now open to having a lover and/or FB and really likes it; b) she is not ruling anything out for the future, knowing that "never" sometimes is dependent on the place and time and mindset when the word "never" is expressed. When the place and time and mindset changes, then "never" can also change.

I'm sure at one time she said "never" to being a hot wife at all and that changed right? Since you're prepared for the long game you are also prepared to suppress some anxiety while Pinky fully dips that toe. All of the things you listed as benefits was a wise focus on her. You have seized on that part of her that is an extrovert. She knows men are attracted to her. She knows she's attractive. She wants to be the sexy center of attention (witness pole dancing). Pinky has some elements that predispose her to having an open attitude about the subject.

Just for discussion sake, what if Pinky suggested that in lieu of you participating, you take on your own lover? No matter how well you have told her that is not something you want. What if she just can't come to meeting your expectation and offers an alternative to assuage her sense of fair play? Would that interest you at all? Do you envision the possibility of her getting to that place in her mind?

[Parsifal]

Just for discussion sake, what if Pinky suggested that in lieu of you participating, you take on your own lover? No matter how well you have told her that is not something you want. What if she just can't come to meeting your expectation and offers an alternative to assuage her sense of fair play? Would that interest you at all? Do you envision the possibility of her getting to that place in her mind?

This hypothetical has a real life analogue in my own situation, with my wife being the Center of the Universe hotwife, the blonde goddess like Pinky. Mine too is averse to her focus of consciousness being disrupted by having her husband as an audience or participant; however, she's open to creating a sex tape or photos for my later consumption provided her lover is willing. However, being the loving wife she is and tries to be, her "concession" has been to suggest what CoastalKid has posed in his hypothetical - that I have an outlet of my own. And I will tell you that the idea of that is not entirely off the table for me. But I do find it potentially dangerous and need to think about it carefully. Like Slenderfish, I may overthink things and because of that, the suggestion she's made will freeze me into inaction indefinitely as I ponder my options. On one hand, by making that the compromise, she's relieved herself of the guilt of feeling hypocritical for a one-sided arrangement in which she lives out all of the fun stuff while husband enjoys it only as a fantasy, a vicarious kind of satisfaction. But on the other hand, she really doesn't believe I'll call her bluff and do it, because she's almost certainly incapable of compersion and, deep down, would resent me taking a lover of my own because that would disturb her sense of divinity. She wants to see herself as the one woman who can satisfy all the needs of multiple men, including her husband's. So not only would me enjoying the company of another female fail to arouse her appreciation of my prowess as a lover - not only would she lack any reciprocal compersion or cuckquean sentiment- she would feel affirmatively dissed in the same way as the Wicked Queen in Snow White did, when the Magic Mirror told her she was no longer the "fairest of them all."

Locked in this dilemma, I'm outsmarted by her. She gets her way guilt free. Go figure.

[XYAlpha]

Just for discussion sake, what if Pinky suggested that in lieu of you participating, you take on your own lover? No matter how well you have told her that is not something you want. What if she just can't come to meeting your expectation and offers an alternative to assuage her sense of fair play? Would that interest you at all? Do you envision the possibility of her getting to that place in her mind?

This hypothetical has a real life analogue in my own situation, with my wife being the Center of the Universe hotwife, the blonde goddess like Pinky. Mine too is averse to her focus of consciousness being disrupted by having her husband as an audience or participant; however, she's open to creating a sex tape or photos for my later consumption provided her lover is willing. However, being the loving wife she is and tries to be, her "concession" has been to suggest what CoastalKid has posed in his hypothetical - that I have an outlet of my own. And I will tell you that the idea of that is not entirely off the table for me. But I do find it potentially dangerous and need to think about it carefully. Like Slenderfish, I may overthink things and because of that, the suggestion she's made will freeze me into inaction indefinitely as I ponder my options. On one hand, by making that the compromise, she's relieved herself of the guilt of feeling hypocritical for a one-sided arrangement in which she lives out all of the fun stuff while husband enjoys it only as a fantasy, a vicarious kind of satisfaction. But on the other hand, she really doesn't believe I'll call her bluff and do it, because she's almost certainly incapable of compersion and, deep down, would resent me taking a lover of my own because that would disturb her sense of divinity. She wants to see herself as the one woman who can satisfy all the needs of multiple men, including her husband's. So not only would me enjoying the company of another female fail to arouse her appreciation of my prowess as a lover - not only would she lack any reciprocal compersion or cuckquean sentiment- she would feel affirmatively dissed in the same way as the Wicked Queen in Snow White did, when the Magic Mirror told her she was no longer the "fairest of them all."

Locked in this dilemma, I'm outsmarted by her. She gets her way guilt free. Go figure.

This response is FANTASTIC!

Cannot resolve circular differences...



XY

[coastalkid]

Locked in this dilemma, I'm outsmarted by her. She gets her way guilt free. Go figure.

You're forced to take the difficult path of calling her bluff I think. To pass on the offer would still give her the acknowledgement of extending the opportunity. If take her up on it then you face her reluctant concession and the tricky navigation of making her idea work. My guess (and that's all it is) is that you call her bluff, see if it makes you both happy(ier) and closer, and if it doesn't work renegotiate. She came up with this idea so she definitely has anticipated the implications, she's thought this through I'm certain.

[Parsifal]

[/quote] If take her up on it then you face her reluctant concession and the tricky navigation of making her idea work.
[/quote]

Swinging on both sides presents very different and potentially far more complex dynamic. Not something to dive into head first. Goddess wives are like Mother Nature; you don't fool around with them.

[slenderfish]

Just for discussion sake, what if Pinky suggested that in lieu of you participating, you take on your own lover?

Locked in this dilemma, I'm outsmarted by her. She gets her way guilt free. Go figure.

Parsifal, your answer and analysis is very insightful and does touch on some of the elements that came to my mind when I first saw Coastalkid's post last night. I'd actually started a reply to it but realized it went much deeper and I needed to think on it overnight.

Now, with your superb summary from your seat and with your hotwife, I'm going to sit again on my thinking pad and then prepare my answer. Especially so because there are so many similarities with my Pinky path.

Thanks to both of you for your illuminating posts.

[coastalkid]

Thanks to both of you for your illuminating posts.

I didn't want to hi-jack your thread with my discussion with Parsifal so I took it to PM. Thank you for responses. If I'm out of line or something please know it's just honest curiosity and naivety! Thanks again, I enjoy reading your posts and this thread very much!

[slenderfish]

Thanks to both of you for your illuminating posts.

I didn't want to hi-jack your thread with my discussion with Parsifal so I took it to PM. Thank you for responses. If I'm out of line or something please know it's just honest curiosity and naivety! Thanks again, I enjoy reading your posts and this thread very much!

No worries, very thought provoking and welcomed. My response below.

I believe in our case this has come up at least twice, not directly but indirectly hinted by Pinky. Something along the lines of "if I'm not fully delivering what you want and need then perhaps you might just find someone else for your fantasy life (and let me continue with Mr. S)" which of course is not a realistic possibility.

Another version came up when I asked her why she suddenly decided it was okay to unilaterally invite Mr. S to visit her in our home area without first discussing with me. She had drawn a hard line in the sand that she will only do hotwife activities when out of state, in her hometown area. The implications to me were a) she overlooked that we are in this together and that we are together establishing new boundaries and rules for our marriage, and these modifications need to be mutually agreed; and b) one of the reasons (at least to me) that she wanted to be out of state was to eliminate the possibility that I could even suggest participating; this participation just was not possible for her to conceptualized even though she knows it's something I'd like. That is, by taking it locally (even with the out-of-state paramour) she is essentially acknowledging that I am within range to participate but is asking me to give way for her, to depart my "castle" to give them space. This is a new and bigger ask. And she just assumed the close on it. When I took her to task about (a) and (b), (this continuing the theme that she must not forget about me in all this) she popped back that perhaps I should find a woman to keep me occupied while she is with Mr. S.

I immediately shot that down by saying her suggestion is a move from hotwifing to cheating with permission (on her side) and justifying it by "allowing" me to have the opening to another woman. That the whole purpose of the hotwifing, from my perspective, is unrelated to whether I get some from another woman, but rather for the two of us to find our mutual benefits by her being with her selected lover. I followed with the point that if hotwifing is not going to work for her or for me, or for us, then we need to either find a path back to where we were (which path we know, that our marriage can work just fine without hotwifing), or decide about the future of our marriage. If she unilaterally decides she wants an affair with a man, then I can either accept it (more as a cuckold, I guess) or reject it (in which case it is probably a bad ending for our marriage) or we can move to an open marriage (which I've never wanted, so what's the point of it; probably also a bad ending for our marriage).

So either we are together or we are not. That's the point. Together in hotwifing, or together in not hotwifing. Failing these, presumably, a great risk of not being together.

I am very curious to know if Pinky would be jealous and suddenly become protective over her turf. I believe she would do just that. Up until now, when anything comes into the conversation or scenario that threatens our life together (and, the unspoken element of lifestyle which is a high premium to her) she retreats to a prior stronghold position.

[XYAlpha]

Pinky would lose her mind the second you bought your side-sex girl a nice Louis Vuitton bag or some Jimmy Choo ARI Crystal Pumps!

Just sayin'...



XY

[afagehi7]

Hold your ground fish. This is a critical time that is developing standards which will be followed in the future. She had her fun to dip her toe in now it's time to be together as a hot wife couple or go back to vanilla marriage. There's always the flr cuckold avenue but I don't think that's what you want.

I didn't realize she planned on fucking him in your home. That's an interesting development. I just assumed it would be at his hotel. Perhaps she's pushing?

People (like kids) will push the boundaries until they know where the line is. Kids do it to parents students to teachers etc.

[coastalkid]

Pinky would lose her mind the second you bought your side-sex girl a nice Louis Vuitton bag or some Jimmy Choo ARI Crystal Pumps!

Just sayin'...



XY

I don't think she'd play it off convincingly either, but who knows, anything could happen right?

[coastalkid]

I am very curious to know if Pinky would be jealous and suddenly become protective over her turf. I believe she would do just that. Up until now, when anything comes into the conversation or scenario that threatens our life together (and, the unspoken element of lifestyle which is a high premium to her) she retreats to a prior stronghold position.

Herein lies one of the greatest accepted double standards in the lifestyle. By an understood agreement many men do not play. Even some of the stags here do not play without the expressed consent of their wives. Jealousy is often stated as why many women prefer their men to not play. You would think that thought would sensitize a woman enough to consider that her husband could feel jealous too and seek reassurance that isn't the case.

It's inconceivable to me to think a woman could go without reconciling the "fairness" of the situation. She's got what she wants. She knows he hasn't got what he wants. I just don't see how a woman could come home feeling good about that. I could NEVER do that to my wife! I'm sure this emanates from my inexperience but I can only operate from the idea that I want to bring my wife the greatest joy in life possible to the point of sacrifice and THAT is exactly what I expect in return. No one announces on their death beds, "I wish I had fucked less!" (or at least I'm pretty sure)

It's another weird thing when men reveal the idea women mistrust the intention and think they want a hall pass and when hot wives reveal their solution men mistrust the intention and think it's a test.

[BigHotMess]

You need to slow the fuck down. You may think that you have it all figured out, but so does everyone.

[superb101]

IMHO, I just dont think Pinky has really grasped the thrill you get from this. She still doesnt really understand this lifestyle. Have you suggested lately she become verified here and learn from the other ladies?

[BallSpanking]

It sounds to me as though SW is projecting her assumed ideal plans into the future, a bit ... unilaterally. It sounds perfectly reasonable of SF to put his foot down, and say "not moving me out of our house". Especially when other more accessible solutions exist, i.e. Mr S staying in a hotel, and SW going up the elevator to visit him. No need to explain squat.

I also get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that she feels Mr S is somehow 'committed' now to something more than a booty call. She may be right, maybe they have extraordinary chemistry together, but maybe SW is assuming this is the natural course events will take. In that case, she may find out soon whether her assessment is correct, or she is misunderstanding the degree of Mr S's involvement. And thereby reassess her own understanding of what is being agreed to.

[afagehi7]

I am very curious to know if Pinky would be jealous and suddenly become protective over her turf. I believe she would do just that. Up until now, when anything comes into the conversation or scenario that threatens our life together (and, the unspoken element of lifestyle which is a high premium to her) she retreats to a prior stronghold position.

Herein lies one of the greatest accepted double standards in the lifestyle. By an understood agreement many men do not play. Even some of the stags here do not play without the expressed consent of their wives. Jealousy is often stated as why many women prefer their men to not play. You would think that thought would sensitize a woman enough to consider that her husband could feel jealous too and seek reassurance that isn't the case.

It's inconceivable to me to think a woman could go without reconciling the "fairness" of the situation. She's got what she wants. She knows he hasn't got what he wants. I just don't see how a woman could come home feeling good about that. I could NEVER do that to my wife! I'm sure this emanates from my inexperience but I can only operate from the idea that I want to bring my wife the greatest joy in life possible to the point of sacrifice and THAT is exactly what I expect in return. No one announces on their death beds, "I wish I had fucked less!" (or at least I'm pretty sure)

It's another weird thing when men reveal the idea women mistrust the intention and think they want a hall pass and when hot wives reveal their solution men mistrust the intention and think it's a test.

I think we're willing to give up other women in order to fulfill our fantasies. I'm sure fish would like another woman after all he's male... but that would have been a deal breaker so we give that up to get something more than a vanilla sex life. That's how I thought about it when I made my play to get a hotwife.

[slenderfish]

Pinky would lose her mind the second you bought your side-sex girl a nice Louis Vuitton bag or some Jimmy Choo ARI Crystal Pumps!

Just sayin'...



XY

This same thought has crossed my mind.

[slenderfish]

Hold your ground fish. This is a critical time that is developing standards which will be followed in the future. She had her fun to dip her toe in now it's time to be together as a hot wife couple or go back to vanilla marriage. There's always the flr cuckold avenue but I don't think that's what you want.

I didn't realize she planned on fucking him in your home. That's an interesting development. I just assumed it would be at his hotel. Perhaps she's pushing?

People (like kids) will push the boundaries until they know where the line is. Kids do it to parents students to teachers etc.

Sorry, I inadvertently misled.

I should have clarified "leave my castle" wasn't literally my home. She is planning a hotel meet, to my understanding. But she wants me to go on a ski trip or otherwise be out of town. This is what I meant by "giving way" in that our local area is kind or my turf, and she'd made such a big deal initially about only hotwifing out of state.

Part of me thinks that holding my ground means I should refuse to leave town, that if she wants him to visit he is free to do so, but she has to go to him in a scheduled manner and come back to me at home. In this way, it'll be more of an "us" experience even though she prefers to be alone with him.

Any thoughts about this? Is this the place and time to make a stand, to assert more of my needs on this new hotwifing path?

Do I let them get their plans more solidified (e.g. he gets his flights etc.) before I make this point?

[slenderfish]

You need to slow the fuck down. You may think that you have it all figured out, but so does everyone.

I believe we have slowed down. She saw him in late November and is planning for late January. We have two months (well, about five weeks remaining) to continue this re-balancing effort.

This is why I'm on here, to sort through with co-conspirators.

[slenderfish]

IMHO, I just dont think Pinky has really grasped the thrill you get from this. She still doesnt really understand this lifestyle. Have you suggested lately she become verified here and learn from the other ladies?

I really do agree with this assessment. Pinky has protested many times that she is really going "out there" to do this for me, and that she doesn't get enough credit from me for it.

I have been dancing the fine line of being overly encouraging and supportive, while trying to point out to her that it's not yet providing me what I'm after; ergo, the re-balancing conversations.

My example to her was if I asked her to go out and get me some freshly-baked chocolate chip cookies. She naturally would resist, she doesn't want those around, she keeps a careful diet, she works out too much to indulge like that, she doesn't want me to indulge, etc. But I really want one, it's very rare, special occasion, etc. She finally agrees to do it "for me" and goes out. She takes a lot longer than I expected and finally returns with a bag that doesn't look right to me. She tells me that she went to the chocolate store, figuring that's where she could find chocolate chip cookies but they only had chocolate candy bars, so she brought me a Kit Kat. And while she was at it, she got herself something that caught her fancy at the time.

I have a choice to thank her or to be critical of the fail. I decide to thank her for the effort and point out that a bakery is really the place for the cookies. She is unhappy for a bit, threatens to abandon the effort. But a few weeks later she endeavors to please me and goes out, this time headed to the bakery.

She returns with a bag that is obviously from the bakery but there is no telling scent of the warm chocolate chip cookies. She presents the bag and inside is red velvet cake. Again, I try to be nice and asked her how it transpired that she brought cake, and she answers that it's the best she can do. She just can't bring herself to get the cookies I requested even though we both know they are right there in the bakery, that it's just a slightly different effort. But ultimately she just doesn't want those around. And of course while out, she picked up something that appealed to her at the time.

So I carefully attempt to redefine and explain why the chocolate chip cookie is really what I want, that the other sweets are nice but just not the same and won't be acceptable substitutes over the longer term. She says she really does want to make me happy but if I insist on the chocolate chip cookie right now, she will not do it but is happy to go out for Kit Kats or red velvet cake again, and grab something for herself, exactly what she wants at the time. She confides that still doesn't see herself getting the ccc for me, just "isn't her" and I say of course never say never, one never knows how the future will transpire.

I have to make a decision as to whether I get her to go for something closer to the traditional ccc, perhaps an oatmeal cookie? I mean, it's a cookie and it might even be warm, and it's one step closer to the ccc. She is now in a pattern where she gets what she wants every time she goes to the store for me, but I know in advance she will not bring home what I requested, what she knows I desire, but will bring home something else that is a bakery item and that I won't reject.

And I cling to a hope that we will eventually get to something very close to the ccc, perhaps even the white macadamia nut cookie?

[slenderfish]

I think we're willing to give up other women in order to fulfill our fantasies. I'm sure fish would like another woman after all he's male... but that would have been a deal breaker so we give that up to get something more than a vanilla sex life. That's how I thought about it when I made my play to get a hotwife.

Ultimately, for me, this is kind of beside the point. This hotwife effort is for me a kink wherein I really do want to see her achieve pleasure from another man. I'm really okay just focusing on Pinky and this vision, with no interest in another woman.

Another woman for me, coupled with a man for her, is a different lifestyle, an open marriage or swinger lifestyle. Different path, different purpose. Perhaps we'll go down that path someday, but I don't see it from where I presently sit.

Until now I've been able to know that she's received pleasure, to hear after the fact about the pleasure, etc. so that I am now able to form a pretty good vision of it.

So it's a good start and has progressed to something I do really enjoy, that scratches the itch of the kink.

I of course still aspire to more, and am hoping she is also aspiring to more for herself, so that we can move along more to our separate (and mutual) desires.

[Parsifal]

You need to slow the fuck down. You may think that you have it all figured out, but so does everyone.

I believe we have slowed down. She saw him in late November and is planning for late January. We have two months (well, about five weeks remaining) to continue this re-balancing effort.

This is why I'm on here, to sort through with co-conspirators.

Occasional breaks have worked very well for us. They allow you to reflect on and consolidate the there-to-here movement or growth in your relationship and to reconnect in that new sense of being. The constant flux can be disorienting and destabilizing. It's important to stay connected and grow even closer if it turns out that she wants a deeper closeness with you. My wife and I use New Year's Eve as a time for reflection on the there-to-here of the ebbing year and project our erotic goals into the nascent one. This is where we give meaning to what we're doing and fit it all into a bigger picture narrative that want the story of our marriage to be. I've come to appreciate how the creative energies set loose by this don't always follow a script and shouldn't be overcontrolled or planned to the last detail. We paint our goals with a broad brush. But there needs to be a loose structure to it all that comforts with what you as a couple want for your relationship, which is presumably your happiness together. Wild ponies needn't be saddled, but however expansive you make the pasture there will always be a fence at the outer edge.

[BigHotMess]

You need to slow the fuck down. You may think that you have it all figured out, but so does everyone.

I believe we have slowed down. She saw him in late November and is planning for late January. We have two months (well, about five weeks remaining) to continue this re-balancing effort.

This is why I'm on here, to sort through with co-conspirators.

That's not slowing down though. You're viewing this from your timeframe. The ball keeps moving, she is in frequent communication with him and expectations and precedent are being cemented. Just because a goal isn't being score doesn't mean that the game isn't being played. You need to call a timeout and meet at the whiteboard. Like just you and her and no future plans or communication. Sincere, direct and understood communication is the precendent that needs to be set now and all you are rolling with is "I know her". Frankly, you don't know her. Part of doing this is to bring out a new behavior pattern, she's likely just as confused as you are.

[samlowen]

Part of me thinks that holding my ground means I should refuse to leave town, that if she wants him to visit he is free to do so, but she has to go to him in a scheduled manner and come back to me at home. In this way, it'll be more of an "us" experience even though she prefers to be alone with him.

Any thoughts about this? Is this the place and time to make a stand, to assert more of my needs on this new hotwifing path?

Do I let them get their plans more solidified (e.g. he gets his flights etc.) before I make this point?

I would have laughed in my wife's face the moment she indicated that I was supposed to leave town and go somewhere else, not caring one iota how it would make her feel or what it might do to the budding hotwifing. I would be very clear with my limits on how far I'm willing to bend for Mr. S. If my wife thinks it's okay to ask me to leave town for another guy her head is in the clouds I need to get it back down to reality. No flipping way would I have let the idea sit as long as you have. It would have been addressed immediately. I can appreciate the leash you are giving her and your reasons for doing so but I would have already addressed this. Her method of operations just doesn't agree with me and I wouldn't be nearly as patient as you.

What's the benefit by continuing to allow her to operate under the wrong assumption? Correct it now. The farther she is allowed to go with the wrong assumption and the closer it gets to the due date the worse the outcome might be. Time fixes things and if she doesn't like you standing up for yourself here and now she certainly wouldn't like it closer to the date, leaving you less time to fix.