Kill Bill...Asking wife to dump BF?!?!

[Samanthasman]

From these rather remarkable exchanges in which you indicate that you highly value honesty - highly enough that you offer her a category-changing concession that she may "cheat" in return for her agreeing to it, and she rejects that deal ( wha-a-a-a?) I think we can reasonably conclude two things: 1. The right to cheat and all the other things you have offered are not interesting enough to her to give you what you want; and 2. She may or may not really be seeking the right to lie to you, but she is definitely holding out.

I would not think retaining the right to lie is what she really is aiming at here. After all, what good is that? People don't need permission to lie -especially with regard to the "whole truth" leg of the oath witnesses in Court have to swear. Lying by omission happens every day and is damn difficult to avoid and to detect. The ancient conundrum about Cretans and liars comes to mind - What is after all either true or false about a statement which ends with " ... And I'm not lying"?

I think she wants something different from you and I think she's getting it: she wants you to suffer as you have made her suffer.

I don't say this is necessarily a conscious strategy on her part - I'm not sure how self-aware either one of you are - but she has to be feeling some little thrill of satisfaction seeing you a hollow-eyed shell of your usual self, eating your guts out, miserable. And who ever said or believed that married persons' relations can be summed up or accounted for in wholly rational terms? Lots of murky stuff in there, and why wouldn't there be? Look at what makes a marriage - two all too human humans!

I think this is either too fresh or past the point where mediation or cognitive therapy can do much to help. You are either going to get through somehow or split and no one, perhaps you two least of all, has the slightest idea which way you are headed as a couple.

Bubba - It's nice to have "senior statesmen" like you, MrsT, and SSQ giving advice here...

I totally don't get why she won't take my offer! It makes no sense, and is driving me crazy. Perhaps you are right - the only benefit is to drive me crazy, but she's not really like that?!?!

Her words are "When it comes to lying, I feel like an alcoholic that is just trying to get sober. I feel like making a commitment to not lie, when I know in my heart I may slip up as I did before, that such a commitment is too soon. I could tell you what you want to hear, but that is not constructive. I don't want to lie to you, but I don't yet trust myself not too. Give me time to work though this myself. Please don't pressure me until I'm ready"

She literally just read this blog and called me. I literally just asked her this question: why are you not taking the deal?

Her response: "Lots has happened in a short time. I'm still processing everything. You HW blog makes it seem like weeks when it's been just days. The twists and turns in out lives are dramatic. I'm just trying to sort out my feelings and come up with the right words to go with the sincere feelings"


One thing she says often is "One thing I have figured out for sure is that I love you and I love my family and I am not leaving you or my family". I don't believe in my heart either of us has any interest in any sort of separation.

The funny (or not so funny) thing is that everyone on this forum thinks our marriage is in trouble. She says "relax - we we fine!" and I say "How come everyone reading about this thinks we are in trouble, did I misrepresent anything", she say "NO, it's pretty accurate". Then I ask "so, why does everyone see this differently?" and she say "I'm not sure. It's sad."

She prayed out loud last night for God to give us strength to get through this together. I think we will.

[agawim]

Is it only me that sees the contradictions in her statements?

[BallSpanking]

I think her honesty is legitimate, when she confesses that she may not be able to avoid lying if she gets very involved. I would suggest you give her the time she needs to process her emotions before deciding to move forward or taking a different course.

[Artimas]

Agawim, I agree. She's a master manipulator, perhaps that's the reason for her professional success. She's as bad as her husband about making a decision. They're heading off the deep end, he can't condone lying before the fact, and she can't not stop lying.

[DaBolts]

Do you want Sam to keep seeing Bill? I dont mean next year or even next month but right now. How do you feel right now about this? Once again do you want to kill Bill?

[Samanthasman]

I think her honesty is legitimate, when she confesses that she may not be able to avoid lying if she gets very involved. I would suggest you give her the time she needs to process her emotions before deciding to move forward or taking a different course.

I think the honest truth is that she wants to be able to do it her way. She wants to see Bill, for example, her way and on her terms with no boundaries. If she can't have that, she seems to prefer nothing at all.

My argument is "if you are willing to compromise a little, you can get a lot". Her argument is "I don't want any boundaries on a relationship". We are stuck.

How do you persuade someone that getting 75% of everything you want is better than getting 100% of nothing??

There is something blocking her from accepting this concept. It may have to do with control?

[agawim]

I would not settle for 75% either if I was her, she can and will easily get 100%.

chip, chip, chip

[Artimas]

I'm starting to feel that there's a Bill/Sam agenda that's driving the whole process. The agenda is that both divorce, then marry each other with absolutely no HW expectations from either. Therefore, no matter what SM offers it's still the sexual status quo. She's unwilling to tell him that directly, but read the words and that's what's she's leading up to.

[Jdotswift]

SMan,
You've gone from "Kill Bill" to "see him whenever you want, just be honest and tell me after", all in an effort to give your wife the opportunity not to lie to you. Surely, you must be feeling some resentment over that? I can't imagine you aren't. Left unchecked, that resentment will kill your relationship with Sam just as dead as Sam leaving you for Bill will.

[MrsTruckstar]

I actually asked Samantha if she wanted to try the full cuckold model.
... but I'll probably like it" I'm sure I have some of those tendencies, but hearing about Bi-sexual BJs, cages, and humiliation is a turn off to me.

That is just another way of doing it, you don't have to do humiliation to be cuck.

I totally don't get why she won't take my offer! It makes no sense,

I will tell you why, because it ain't an offer. My husband says, "I want to know when you have a date, before you have it. I won't try to stop it, I just like to know." That is fine he can stop that at any time.

People don't want to be invited to lie.
You. "Are you going out with Bill tonight?"
Her. "No, I am with Sid."
Tick, tock - Morning time
You. "How was your night with Sid."
Her. "It was great, I am seeing Sid again tonight, staying over."
You "What two nights on the bounce."
Her. "Well as per our deal, it was Bill but it is Sid tonight."
You. "Cool, really Sid?"
Her. "Yep."
Tick, tock - Morning time
You. "How was your night with Sid."
Her "It was Bill."

I been around this stuff for years, I cannot see how that would work. Permission to lie is always seen as a test. It is wrong to put somebody you love in that situation. Truth is better, no matter how hard to swallow. Even if it is "SM, we are neither here nor there, I am going to fuck Bill tonight and tomorrow night, until we have some kind of strategy."

[Jdotswift]

"When it comes to lying, I feel like an alcoholic trying to get sober...".
Most alcoholics don't get sober until they have nothing left to lose.

[Samanthasman]

I'm starting to feel that there's a Bill/Sam agenda that's driving the whole process. The agenda is that both divorce, then marry each other with absolutely no HW expectations from either. Therefore, no matter what SM offers it's still the sexual status quo. She's unwilling to tell him that directly, but read the words and that's what's she's leading up to.

You are grasping at straws here. Whether this might someday be someone's agenda, who knows, but it's not at this time.

[Fotodom]

Kudo's for calling Bill. The way the convo is reconstructed, he seems genuine enough... I don't get the part about his wife's Radical change in her sexuality (edit; and her giving a free pass on top of it???) that is indeed odd. I mean it all seems to read simply and straightforwardly enough, but it's so Odd... hmm..

It seems to me that this has become a life altering event for Sam. She has had to, or been, confronted by things she may never have had to deal with before. It's all in a way, new to her I think. And this may be why she (I actually think honestly) says she cannot promise to be honest. She simply may not know herself well enough in this 'new' area, and again honestly is saying where she's at. I am not one who is thinking she's simply manipulating here, I think she knows how to do that and may have Always done that in the past, but again these events and their repercussions may be totally new to her, and strike her at a level that she has never felt before.

[Curious_mac]

SM: I have not been on here to follow the painful twists and turns of this journey. I do hope you receive the help you need to restore your marriage. And I hope and pray that it becomes the most cherished thing in both of your lives-- beyond your wildest imaginations.

You are receiving plenty of mixed advice so I will not offer any more. But know my heart is sad for the pain you must be feeling. So What I can and will do is commit to pray for your marriage. That it would be restored and healed. That both of your hearts would be transformed in such a way that you would cleave to each other as husband and wife with overflowing love. That Self-centeredness and pride would vanish and be replaced with compassion and connection that promotes We instead of me.

So if you don't mind every-time I see a post of yours or think of you I will petition my God to bless your marriage. This my friend is the most loving thing I know to do for you in this storm of life.

Much grace to you!

Again I feel for both you and Sam. Jenna is right along with me on this.

[agawim]

The red flags....bolded items should scare the shit out of you and cause a hard stop on any and all HW activities for the indefinite future.

- you are not comfortable with Bil, she still wants to see him
- you eliminated Bill, but immediately he's back involved
- she has met with and talked to Bill without your knowledge - the ONLY way you know is someone tipped you off
- you felt compelled that you had to hire a PI to follow her
- both of you are still entertaining the continuation of Bill, amid the core problems with your communication, trust and broken rules
- she wants to see and do whatever with Bill with no limits - whatever that means
- she states she needs to see Bill on her terms or no more HW at all, basically giving you an ultimatum.
- she has openly said she can't control her lies, then compared it to alcoholism
- you told her any mistake would be immediately forgiven, as long as she doesn't lie (aka, free pass)
- each of you feels compelled to routinely "double-down" on your marriage. When people feel the need to often say "everything is fine", it often is not.

I do not understand at all - how someone with a rational brain (and I believe you have one) could continue on with all of these factual red flags (and perhaps more).

As others have noted, she's manipulating you and - you are enabling it. For the sake of your relationship and family - you should immediately halt all HW activities. Take some time. You jumped into this with both feet very quickly. Time for a break.

hear, hear

[SSQ]

I don't know, Sman. Lying is a choice.

I'm a very good poker player, no doubt aided by the fact that I am a very good liar. Guess what? I don't lie to people I love because it makes me feel scuzzy. They trust me, and I'm violating that trust. So I choose to tell the truth. I won't say I don't sometimes try to angle things in a way to help me get what I want, but I think everyone does that.

Bottom line, I think that the reason your relationship is in trouble is the lying. Trust is the foundation of every marriage. Look at you guys! You hired an investigator because you didn't believe her, and she doesn't think your marriage just might be in trouble? Forget all the other stuff, I am not even friends with people who lie to me, let alone married.

The first lie, I could see and even understand her perspective on. This continued refusal to tell the truth? That would be a dealbreaker for me.

I agree that a non lifestyle counsellor isn't productive under the circumstances, but I did post a link to kink friendly professionals. I'm sure there is someone near you. Also check ncsfreedom.org and altcoach.com

I was really taken aback when you asked her if she wanted to cuckold. First, back to the models again and you know how I feel about that. But secondly, you couldn't even handle her relationship with Bill before and now you want to explore one where she might be fully entitled to behave the way she did?

Did you guys actually sit down and talk about wants vs needs instead of trying to pigeonhole yourselves into something?

As for the 75% vs 100%, my husband said the same thing to me back when he had a boundary of no D/s relationships with men. It doesn't work that way. If I'm missing an element that I need to be happy, then it's not enough. I was clear with him that this was not a boundary that I could accept. This isn't the kind of thing you can quantify like that. Either it meets your needs or it doesn't.

I agree with the previous posters that you both need to take a step back an d focus on your marriage. I have no idea what either of you is doing to "double down" on commitment since she won't even promise not to lie, and you seem not to be articulating what you actually want well.

[Samanthasman]

SM: I have not been on here to follow the painful twists and turns of this journey. I do hope you receive the help you need to restore your marriage. And I hope and pray that it becomes the most cherished thing in both of your lives-- beyond your wildest imaginations.

You are receiving plenty of mixed advice so I will not offer any more. But know my heart is sad for the pain you must be feeling. So What I can and will do is commit to pray for your marriage. That it would be restored and healed. That both of your hearts would be transformed in such a way that you would cleave to each other as husband and wife with overflowing love. That Self-centeredness and pride would vanish and be replaced with compassion and connection that promotes We instead of me.

So if you don't mind every-time I see a post of yours or think of you I will petition my God to bless your marriage. This my friend is the most loving thing I know to do for you in this storm of life.

Much grace to you!

Again I feel for both you and Sam. Jenna is right along with me on this.

Thank you. And, bless you!

[WantMore]

Has Sam lied to you throught your marriage? Then shes comparing it to being an alcoholic makes me think she has lied about small stuff all the way thru.

Im one who feels your marriage is good, especially after you posting about the Bill convo.

Your looking weak to your wife. I feel thats the wrong approach. I went back and reread todays posts. Everyone says shes allowed to lie if she tells later. I never seen SM say that. He said if she honest he can think about forgiving her for the past deal with Bill.

And yeah she says all or nothin. Mine did that too. I called her bluff. I told her honesty or nothing! My wife was able to submit down. Yours looks to be so head strong she may blow up if you tell her honesty or no Bill.

Also Bill needs to know that you are strong. He also needs to know that her fudgin the truth will kill there relationship. If he really is interested in helping you two out so he can have dates with her he should be willing to take your side on this. If not, he may have other agendas or may think you are weak.

Have you met him in person? This is also important. You need to show him thru physical motions that your are the strong one. Not fighting, just look him in the eye.

Man you have to show strength thru this. I dont see how cuckolding could help.

[Samanthasman]

I agree with the previous posters that you both need to take a step back an d focus on your marriage. I have no idea what either of you is doing to "double down" on commitment since she won't even promise not to lie, and you seem not to be articulating what you actually want well.

I still don't even know what it means or how someone "doubles down" on a relationship. I actually find it comical someone would say it to their spouse or ask their spouse to do it. Perhaps the comical part of my thought there comes from the fact my wife and I are currently en route to Vegas.

Relationships are not something to gamble with. Wife and I have been in a swinging lifestyle for over 10 years and we've had some bumps - key thing is we both know this is a team thing and we are more important than anything or anyone that could come between us. She's dropped a couple guys that got too close without much hesitation.

But - she respects our relationship enough to do that. Not all wives do....

"She's dropped a couple guys that got too close without much hesitation." - I hear that a lot. It's part of the game.

Forgive the "Double Down" statement. It's just an expression meaning that we need to renew our commitment to honestly and each other, and rebuild the trust in order to move forward. I thought that might start with a from the heart commitment to not lie again, and found that my wife is not ready to make that commitment, and is still processing her feelings.

[Artimas]

When you asked her to marry you how long did it take for her to 'process her feelings'? Or if she asked you to get married how long did it take you?

[mundyman]

SamMan- In following your thread you described Sam's relationship history and her habit of leaving one relationship for the next better thing. Is there a chance she has those feelings now? In those instances she really didn't have many anchors to keep her in the relationship, however now there are several rather large anchors to keep her in this marriage. She knows this, hates the idea at times, but also realizes it's the right thing for her to do for many reasons. Because of your family together, the love she has for you, the life she has built with you that she is seriously conflicted. There is a fight within her right now between her desire to leave for the next best thing and her desire to stay with you and her family. Is that what she is processing? That she needs to get totally comfortable with staying with you and turning away from leaving.
Perhaps she knows rationally that she wants to stay but emotionally this is the time in the story when she would leave. It seems obvious that she is having a hard time keeping her emotions for Bill in the proper perspective with your marriage and Hotwifing. She may be grieving over this lose of freedom .The idea that she is at that stage of her life when she has to stay. That takes awhile to get over.

The discussion she wants to have with you no doubt is going to be a tough one and she needs to wrap her brain around the ideas she wants to share with you as well as how she is going to phrase them. She needs time to process these conflicting emotions and thoughts. I get the feeling there are days she really wants to be with him, and thus is rather pissy toward you, and then are days when she doesn't have any desire to leave you or blow up your family and all is well. I would imagine there are many more of the later.

Admitting to you that she can't trust herself sounds like a cry for help in making the decision. Stay strong and resolute in your decisions. Continue to show her as well as tell her of your love for her. This no doubt will help her through the process. Be the MAN she married and fell in love with.
Continued best thoughts and wishes to you and your wife as you work through this.

[mundyman]

"Forgive the "Double Down" statement. It's just an expression meaning that we need to renew our commitment to honestly and each other, and rebuild the trust in order to move forward. I thought that might start with a from the heart commitment to not lie again, and found that my wife is not ready to make that commitment, and is still processing her feelings."

That inability to make that commitment would just kill me. But nothing at all can start again until you two have overcome that Mt. Everest of an obstacle.

[traycir]

I think her honesty is legitimate, when she confesses that she may not be able to avoid lying if she gets very involved. I would suggest you give her the time she needs to process her emotions before deciding to move forward or taking a different course.

I think the honest truth is that she wants to be able to do it her way. She wants to see Bill, for example, her way and on her terms with no boundaries. If she can't have that, she seems to prefer nothing at all.

My argument is "if you are willing to compromise a little, you can get a lot". Her argument is "I don't want any boundaries on a relationship". We are stuck.

How do you persuade someone that getting 75% of everything you want is better than getting 100% of nothing??

There is something blocking her from accepting this concept. It may have to do with control?

This I think is the crux of the whole matter distilled into one post. She wants what she wants, and nothing else, 100% or nothing. You want what you want, 75% or nothing. This is called an impasse. One of you has to give, or you both have to give it up! So far I really don't see much meaningful negotiation going on from either of you.
The truth seems to be, from what you have written, that you don't want to "kill Bill", you want her to continue to see Bill, but only on your terms. She wants to continue with Bill, but only on her terms. God only knows what Bill wants. (Either way, despite your strangely high regard for him, he seems like a world class bastard. For all we know he's busy laughing at both of you.) You tell her end it with Bill, then send mixed messages by saying well under some circumstances it would be ok. She says No, I can't trust myself to tell you the truth, my way or no way. Your response is now, well take 75% of what you want, after all that's what I want".
The real problem is neither of you is willing to change your positions or face reality here. On the one hand she is upset, crying at the gym, etc.; you are all broken up and upset, but you both insist your marriage is not in trouble.

Ok, I said I wouldn't post that you should see a therapist again, sue me, but you REALLY need some reality testing from a professional! It doesn't have to be a "kink friendly" professional either, just a good one. We are not in your area, but I have a colleague and close friend who does marriage counseling. He doesn't consider himself "kink friendly", but he has seen WAY weirder (subjectively) stuff then this and he is a wizard at personal relationships. If you find a highly recommended, skilled marriage professional I think it would help you a lot.

[MrsTruckstar]

She is actually saying-: I don't trust my self to stick to 2 hours here and there. It will encroach on my freedom and as a consequence; I will be placed in a position where I will be gofer to lie. That is why she wants unlimited access. Then there is no need to lie. She doesn't want scraps from the table she want the banquet.

[SmilingHusband]

so, she's greedy *and* a liar.

awesome.