Kill Bill...Asking wife to dump BF?!?!

[mundyman]

That was very well stated SM. Until you check each of those 5 points off to both of your satisfaction I just don't see how you can proceed with Bill if not this lifestyle.
As always best of luck and best wishes.

[SmilingHusband]

She needs the boyfriend experience with him to play out, it got started and then pulled from under her...

Right... except for the part where the "boyfriend experience" becomes the "break up your marriage experience"!

holy shit. wait.....

Spanking, is this a come-to-Jesus moment here?

I feel like I should run out and buy a lottery ticket, or, run outside and watch for the Apocalypse.

Good on you man.

[hhubby]

I don't know... my wife is not a hw yet and I really understand you but honestly too much analysis takes the fun out of it

[Samanthasman]

I don't know... my wife is not a hw yet and I really understand you but honestly too much analysis takes the fun out of it

That's absolutely true...

It would always be more fun to simply throw caution to the wind and say "whatever happens..."

Most likely that would have yielded the same end result with more fun along the way. Of course, had I not investigated and analyzed the Bill relationship as deeply as I did, I might not have uncovered the lying. Cheating may have followed... I might not have insisted on her seeing other men, and all of her connection and experience would be with one guy. Who knows where that ugly mess would end up. I might well have been just fine... or not... the truth is that I'm just not enough of a gambler to leave everything up to chance.

And, thus, I have certainly tried to control the experiment. To some degree this blog was a deep analysis of that attempt - and because that's most of what the people on here saw, I'm sure it looked like that's all it was.

- Were my wants and needs reasonable?
- Were my attempts at controlling the situation reasonable?

I don't know...

To put it all into perspective - we have had some amazing highs. The most thrilling sexual adventures of the last decade.

And the lows have been "annoying" but not as low as some of the readers here have speculated. We never felt our marriage was in jeopardy, for example.

I see a lot of this thread as being diary for me, and and unusually deep insight into how a modern couple approaches and negotiates and navigates into this world of HWing.

I think the number-one fear of HWing is the risk of the wife falling for a BF. I also believe that this could happen to ANYONE on here - it just a statistical chance - anyone can meet at any time someone they have a special chemistry with. My wife met a person like that early on in the HWing experiment we we documented dealing with that here.

[SmilingHusband]

I think the number-one fear of HWing is the risk of the wife falling for a BF. I also believe that this could happen to ANYONE on here - .

yes on this first, and no way on the second. you have set yourself up for the first, by continuing to allow the abscess that is Bill to infect your marriage.

The second will never happen to those of us that practice more caution. Show me ONE instance where a couple that exclusively did MFMs got into the weeds.

ONE will do. I'll wait.

[FNQLivin]

SM, I think you're missing some of the point of the previous poster.

These are my thoughts only, but I think you spend too much time over thinking this situation. Some of your rational about why someone would leave for another appears to me, to be very very mechanical. I am middle aged, had several LTR's, been married once. Never have I ever been involved with someone or rejected by someone because of my $$$ capacity. People fall in and out of love for very different reasons, but I really believe that cock size, the intensity of their orgasms and their $$$ isn't (or shouldn't) be one of them. I've always been sure to protect my assets (when I was single and dating) but their wealth, job or sexual ability never made me think that I want this person over this person. Love is about a lot more than that.

Sam is more likely to leave you for someone else because she's fallen in love with that person, by spending lots of personal time with them than she is by analysing and comparing your cock size, sexual ability or $$$ in the bank. If she does ever think like that, it was never love before.

Before I dip out, if you're not enjoying it, then don't do it. If you enjoy it at all, even because of the other benefits it brings your relationship then by all means continue. But this obsession over one man is driving you and me nuts.

[Samanthasman]

I think the number-one fear of HWing is the risk of the wife falling for a BF. I also believe that this could happen to ANYONE on here - .

yes on this first, and no way on the second. you have set yourself up for the first, by continuing to allow the abscess that is Bill to infect your marriage.

The second will never happen to those of us that practice more caution. Show me ONE instance where a couple that exclusively did MFMs got into the weeds.

ONE will do. I'll wait.

I'm willing to concede that you may be right. I honestly don't know. I really wish we all had some "data" on things like this.

I would certainly believe that doing MFMs exclusively would seem to be the "safest" way to go. That being said, there are clearly many women on here that don't want MFMs and/or want to play solo. When I did attempt to ask many this question, it felt like the majority of HWs play solo.

SO, saying MFMs are safer than solo, may well be true, but thats not much more relevant than saying that table tennis is safer than football. It does not mean that football players are going to be satisfied playing table tennis.

[MrsTruckstar]

It does not mean that footballers won't be satisfied with table tennis.

Also how do you know if something is for you if you don't try it.

[Samanthasman]

SM, I think you're missing some of the point of the previous poster.

These are my thoughts only, but I think you spend too much time over thinking this situation. Some of your rational about why someone would leave for another appears to me, to be very very mechanical. I am middle aged, had several LTR's, been married once. Never have I ever been involved with someone or rejected by someone because of my $$$ capacity. People fall in and out of love for very different reasons, but I really believe that cock size, the intensity of their orgasms and their $$$ isn't (or shouldn't) be one of them. I've always been sure to protect my assets (when I was single and dating) but their wealth, job or sexual ability never made me think that I want this person over this person. Love is about a lot more than that.

Sam is more likely to leave you for someone else because she's fallen in love with that person, by spending lots of personal time with them than she is by analysing and comparing your cock size, sexual ability or $$$ in the bank. If she does ever think like that, it was never love before.

Before I dip out, if you're not enjoying it, then don't do it. If you enjoy it at all, even because of the other benefits it brings your relationship then by all means continue. But this obsession over one man is driving you and me nuts.

I have no idea what the formula for love is, but to imagine that money, cock size, sexual compatibility, family connection, business connection, intellectual compatibility, and a million other perfectly measurable metics has nothing to do with whether a women may choose one person over another, or even love one person over another, is foolish. Everything matters to various degrees. How much what matters to whom, of course varies.

[Samanthasman]

It does not mean that footballers won't be satisfied with table tennis.

Also how do you know if something is for you if you don't try it.

You don't... but a lot of people are simply not interested in trying some things.

I would imagine a lot of football players would have no interest in table tennis.

[Good to see you back, MrsT]

[FNQLivin]

SM, I think you're missing some of the point of the previous poster.

These are my thoughts only, but I think you spend too much time over thinking this situation. Some of your rational about why someone would leave for another appears to me, to be very very mechanical. I am middle aged, had several LTR's, been married once. Never have I ever been involved with someone or rejected by someone because of my $$$ capacity. People fall in and out of love for very different reasons, but I really believe that cock size, the intensity of their orgasms and their $$$ isn't (or shouldn't) be one of them. I've always been sure to protect my assets (when I was single and dating) but their wealth, job or sexual ability never made me think that I want this person over this person. Love is about a lot more than that.

Sam is more likely to leave you for someone else because she's fallen in love with that person, by spending lots of personal time with them than she is by analysing and comparing your cock size, sexual ability or $$$ in the bank. If she does ever think like that, it was never love before.

Before I dip out, if you're not enjoying it, then don't do it. If you enjoy it at all, even because of the other benefits it brings your relationship then by all means continue. But this obsession over one man is driving you and me nuts.

I have no idea what the formula for love is, but to imagine that money, cock size, sexual compatibility, family connection, business connection, intellectual compatibility, and a million other perfectly measurable metics has nothing to do with whether a women may choose one person over another, or even love one person over another, is foolish. Everything matters to various degrees. How much what matters to whom, of course varies.

There you are again! Measurable metrics?

Love has nothing to do with measurable metrics. If it did, someone would have worked the formula out and patented it. In the World I live in, people love each other for so many unexplainable reasons, they certainly don't get a spreadsheet out and start weighting cells based on relative importance.

FWIW, I don't think there are any super safe, guaranteed to never fail HW models. There are models less likely to end badly, but relationships end for all sorts of reasons regardless of whether the couple engage in the HW lifestyle. Only you know the strength of your bond and there is no model, no sure way that will guarantee that Sam won't fall for someone, regardless of how you play. Cherish every day and always be your best.

Again I'm sorry, but I think you are over analysing this and are too mechanical. I wish you well.

[Samanthasman]

SM, I think you're missing some of the point of the previous poster.

There you are again! Measurable metrics?

Love has nothing to do with measurable metrics. If it did, someone would have worked the formula out and patented it. In the World I live in, people love each other for so many unexplainable reasons, they certainly don't get a spreadsheet out and start weighting cells based on relative importance.

FWIW, I don't think there are any super safe, guaranteed to never fail HW models. There are models less likely to end badly, but relationships end for all sorts of reasons regardless of whether the couple engage in the HW lifestyle. Only you know the strength of your bond and there is no model, no sure way that will guarantee that Sam won't fall for someone, regardless of how you play. Cherish every day and always be your best.

Again I'm sorry, but I think you are over analysing this and are too mechanical. I wish you well.

So, love is just this "magical" thing and nothing more? Perhaps there really are invisible cupids flying around us, and picking us off at random?? And love is the only factor determining who chooses who??

I find your lack of interest and belief that any of this stuff matters to be a troubling as you find my over-analysis, but I love you anyway for your diverse opinion.

[traycir]

I don't know... my wife is not a hw yet and I really understand you but honestly too much analysis takes the fun out of it

I think the number-one fear of HWing is the risk of the wife falling for a BF. I also believe that this could happen to ANYONE on here - it just a statistical chance - anyone can meet at any time someone they have a special chemistry with. My wife met a person like that early on in the HWing experiment we we documented dealing with that here.

I think it COULD happen to anyone here, but I am sorry, some approaches to the whole thing make it more likely then others. From time to time you have referred to this as playing "Russian roulette" with your marriage. I once posted that for most of us it is more like the "Trust Me" game, and you replied that the two are basicaly the same. They are not. Russian Roulette ALWAYS ends with a bang! and someone's brains splattered against a wall. Trust Me ends with a click and a reaffirmation of faith and closeness. I hope this isn't offensive, but I think consciously or not you are playing Russian roulette, while MOST of us are playing Trust Me.

[allengt]

yes on this first, and no way on the second. you have set yourself up for the first, by continuing to allow the abscess that is Bill to infect your marriage.

The second will never happen to those of us that practice more caution. Show me ONE instance where a couple that exclusively did MFMs got into the weeds.

ONE will do. I'll wait.

Since I have about 50 or so more years in this lifestyle than you I know a lot of marriages that failed even though they only did MFMs. I would say the odds of a marriage failing is about equal no matter how they play and even if they are in any adult lifestyle.
Marriages end for all sorts of reason and most have nothing to do with any lifestyle.

[Samanthasman]

I don't know... my wife is not a hw yet and I really understand you but honestly too much analysis takes the fun out of it

I think the number-one fear of HWing is the risk of the wife falling for a BF. I also believe that this could happen to ANYONE on here - it just a statistical chance - anyone can meet at any time someone they have a special chemistry with. My wife met a person like that early on in the HWing experiment we we documented dealing with that here.

I think it COULD happen to anyone here, but I am sorry, some approaches to the whole thing make it more likely then others. From time to time you have referred to this as playing "Russian roulette" with your marriage. I once posted that for most of us it is more like the "Trust Me" game, and you replied that the two are basicaly the same. They are not. Russian Roulette ALWAYS ends with a bang! and someone's brains splattered against a wall. Trust Me ends with a click and a reaffirmation of faith and closeness. I hope this isn't offensive, but I think consciously or not you are playing Russian roulette, while MOST of us are playing Trust Me.

I afraid you are going to have to say something more substantive to make your point. We are all trusting our spouses. Something that does not work.

When I say we are playing "Russian Roulette" - I mean one pull of the trigger. Usually that does not end in a gunshot, but it could.

If you could tell me why some approach you are using is safer than mine or someone else's - not that would be potentially helpful. Calling it by a different name is not substantive.

[SmilingHusband]

yes on this first, and no way on the second. you have set yourself up for the first, by continuing to allow the abscess that is Bill to infect your marriage.

The second will never happen to those of us that practice more caution. Show me ONE instance where a couple that exclusively did MFMs got into the weeds.

ONE will do. I'll wait.

Since I have about 50 or so more years in this lifestyle than you I know a lot of marriages that failed even though they only did MFMs. I would say the odds of a marriage failing is about equal no matter how they play and even if they are in any adult lifestyle.
Marriages end for all sorts of reason and most have nothing to do with any lifestyle.

care to quote ONE example from here?

[SSQ]

SM, I think you're missing some of the point of the previous poster.

These are my thoughts only, but I think you spend too much time over thinking this situation. Some of your rational about why someone would leave for another appears to me, to be very very mechanical. I am middle aged, had several LTR's, been married once. Never have I ever been involved with someone or rejected by someone because of my $$$ capacity. People fall in and out of love for very different reasons, but I really believe that cock size, the intensity of their orgasms and their $$$ isn't (or shouldn't) be one of them. I've always been sure to protect my assets (when I was single and dating) but their wealth, job or sexual ability never made me think that I want this person over this person. Love is about a lot more than that.

Sam is more likely to leave you for someone else because she's fallen in love with that person, by spending lots of personal time with them than she is by analysing and comparing your cock size, sexual ability or $$$ in the bank. If she does ever think like that, it was never love before.

Before I dip out, if you're not enjoying it, then don't do it. If you enjoy it at all, even because of the other benefits it brings your relationship then by all means continue. But this obsession over one man is driving you and me nuts.

I have no idea what the formula for love is, but to imagine that money, cock size, sexual compatibility, family connection, business connection, intellectual compatibility, and a million other perfectly measurable metics has nothing to do with whether a women may choose one person over another, or even love one person over another, is foolish. Everything matters to various degrees. How much what matters to whom, of course varies.

There you are again! Measurable metrics?

Love has nothing to do with measurable metrics. If it did, someone would have worked the formula out and patented it. In the World I live in, people love each other for so many unexplainable reasons, they certainly don't get a spreadsheet out and start weighting cells based on relative importance.

FWIW, I don't think there are any super safe, guaranteed to never fail HW models. There are models less likely to end badly, but relationships end for all sorts of reasons regardless of whether the couple engage in the HW lifestyle. Only you know the strength of your bond and there is no model, no sure way that will guarantee that Sam won't fall for someone, regardless of how you play. Cherish every day and always be your best.

Again I'm sorry, but I think you are over analysing this and are too mechanical. I wish you well.

*applause*

Yeah, frankly I do think that love is some magical thing that just happens when people have a great connection together. Look at all the angst people have over it. Love is illogical by nature. In some cases downright impractical or crazy. People fall in and out of love all the time.

I've met men who are absolutely fantastic on paper. I mean, absolutely perfect for me, the kind of guy I should want to leave my husband for if it's all about that. Great job that pays way more than what H makes, more availability, into BDSM and cuckolding, is submissive, attractive, has hobbies and interests in common, yadda yadda. Guess what? No spark. And that's the indefinable, indescribable thing. The chemistry. The connection. It's just there, or it's not.

Why do I love my husband? Oh, there are lots of great reasons, but none of them comes close to describing the whole. I love him because I do. QED.

[SmilingHusband]

I would certainly believe that doing MFMs exclusively would seem to be the "safest" way to go. That being said, there are clearly many women on here that don't want MFMs and/or want to play solo.

so, in those cases that's where the husband says NO, I don't want to do this. Sorry. No team? Sorry honey, can't have the cake and eat it too.

I mean, really? Don't be a doormat. She don't like it? Tough shit.

[zorro]

yes on this first, and no way on the second. you have set yourself up for the first, by continuing to allow the abscess that is Bill to infect your marriage.

The second will never happen to those of us that practice more caution. Show me ONE instance where a couple that exclusively did MFMs got into the weeds.

ONE will do. I'll wait.

Since I have about 50 or so more years in this lifestyle than you I know a lot of marriages that failed even though they only did MFMs. I would say the odds of a marriage failing is about equal no matter how they play and even if they are in any adult lifestyle.
Marriages end for all sorts of reason and most have nothing to do with any lifestyle.

I don't have as many years in the LS as Allengt, but based on a solid decade in the LS and several years of sharing women, I would say that the breakup of marriages occurs for all kinds of reasons, but being in the lifestyle does not seem to be a prominent one.

It is still ironic to me that SM fears Sam's having love for Bill as much as he does. There are many couples who are able to love others without being left or leaving. And all relationship breakup risks must be compared to the divorce risk of 50% for first marriages in the US and 70% in second marriages. How's them metrics?

Love is not a zero-sum game. You either have the capacity to open your heart to be loving in that way or you don't. If you make it a zero-sum game, you will spend all your time feeling threatened.

Get the power dance and the fear out of your relationship and replace it with love and a mutual desire for each of you to be happy and fulfilled, including enjoying and even loving other people.

If you can't, you can't. If you can, you two can be very happy.

[Samanthasman]

SM, I think you're missing some of the point of the previous poster.

These are my thoughts only, but I think you spend too much time over thinking this situation. Some of your rational about why someone would leave for another appears to me, to be very very mechanical. I am middle aged, had several LTR's, been married once. Never have I ever been involved with someone or rejected by someone because of my $$$ capacity. People fall in and out of love for very different reasons, but I really believe that cock size, the intensity of their orgasms and their $$$ isn't (or shouldn't) be one of them. I've always been sure to protect my assets (when I was single and dating) but their wealth, job or sexual ability never made me think that I want this person over this person. Love is about a lot more than that.

Sam is more likely to leave you for someone else because she's fallen in love with that person, by spending lots of personal time with them than she is by analysing and comparing your cock size, sexual ability or $$$ in the bank. If she does ever think like that, it was never love before.

Before I dip out, if you're not enjoying it, then don't do it. If you enjoy it at all, even because of the other benefits it brings your relationship then by all means continue. But this obsession over one man is driving you and me nuts.

I have no idea what the formula for love is, but to imagine that money, cock size, sexual compatibility, family connection, business connection, intellectual compatibility, and a million other perfectly measurable metics has nothing to do with whether a women may choose one person over another, or even love one person over another, is foolish. Everything matters to various degrees. How much what matters to whom, of course varies.

There you are again! Measurable metrics?

Love has nothing to do with measurable metrics. If it did, someone would have worked the formula out and patented it. In the World I live in, people love each other for so many unexplainable reasons, they certainly don't get a spreadsheet out and start weighting cells based on relative importance.

FWIW, I don't think there are any super safe, guaranteed to never fail HW models. There are models less likely to end badly, but relationships end for all sorts of reasons regardless of whether the couple engage in the HW lifestyle. Only you know the strength of your bond and there is no model, no sure way that will guarantee that Sam won't fall for someone, regardless of how you play. Cherish every day and always be your best.

Again I'm sorry, but I think you are over analysing this and are too mechanical. I wish you well.

*applause*

Yeah, frankly I do think that love is some magical thing that just happens when people have a great connection together. Look at all the angst people have over it. Love is illogical by nature. In some cases downright impractical or crazy. People fall in and out of love all the time.

I've met men who are absolutely fantastic on paper. I mean, absolutely perfect for me, the kind of guy I should want to leave my husband for if it's all about that. Great job that pays way more than what H makes, more availability, into BDSM and cuckolding, is submissive, attractive, has hobbies and interests in common, yadda yadda. Guess what? No spark. And that's the indefinable, indescribable thing. The chemistry. The connection. It's just there, or it's not.

Why do I love my husband? Oh, there are lots of great reasons, but none of them comes close to describing the whole. I love him because I do. QED.

You are such a romantic!!

Please - nobody is saying that love is a formula... But it's not a totally random mystery either. There are people I could not have chemistry with.

Also - my point was that it not just about love...

Still, it is cute that you are such a romantic

[SmilingHusband]

still waiting for ONE example from OHW of a failed HWing scene that only did MFMs.

I'll wait.

[zorro]

still waiting for ONE example from OHW of a failed HWing scene that only did MFMs.

I'll wait.

Not from us. We are going strong and happily.

[Samanthasman]

yes on this first, and no way on the second. you have set yourself up for the first, by continuing to allow the abscess that is Bill to infect your marriage.

The second will never happen to those of us that practice more caution. Show me ONE instance where a couple that exclusively did MFMs got into the weeds.

ONE will do. I'll wait.

Since I have about 50 or so more years in this lifestyle than you I know a lot of marriages that failed even though they only did MFMs. I would say the odds of a marriage failing is about equal no matter how they play and even if they are in any adult lifestyle.
Marriages end for all sorts of reason and most have nothing to do with any lifestyle.

I don't have as many years in the LS as Allengt, but based on a solid decade in the LS and several years of sharing women, I would say that the breakup of marriages occurs for all kinds of reasons, but being in the lifestyle does not seem to be a prominent one.

It is still ironic to me that SM fears Sam's having love for Bill as much as he does. There are many couples who are able to love others without being left or leaving. And all relationship breakup risks must be compared to the divorce risk of 50% for first marriages in the US and 70% in second marriages. How's them metrics?

Love is not a zero-sum game. You either have the capacity to open your heart to be loving in that way or you don't. If you make it a zero-sum game, you will spend all your time feeling threatened.

Get the power dance and the fear out of your relationship and replace it with love and a mutual desire for each of you to be happy and fulfilled, including enjoying and even loving other people.

If you can't, you can't. If you can, you two can be very happy.

You know when we started this HW thing a great fear I had was that Samantha would fall in love with someone else. Funny thing is that as her feeling about him have grown more intense, it's not love that I worry about. My jealousy has subsided. But I am bothered by the others issues I listed.

I do agree that love does not have to be a zero-sum-game. Yes, when you have a second child you don't love the first one less.

BUT - just because it does not have to be zero-sum does not mean it is!!

There are many cases where the wife take the husband for granted when she has a lover. Or she is not sensitive to her husbands needs. Or in extreme cases, where she stops loving her husband. So, saying "love is not a zero-sum-game" is NOT accurate! It may or may not be...

[allengt]

still waiting for ONE example from OHW of a failed HWing scene that only did MFMs.

I'll wait.

Yep, my friend Frank and his wife Kathy. I use to do MFMs with them. Then one day he told me that she was leaving him for another one of their MFM hookups. Frank later got married again to a sweet lady but it took him years to venture into the lifestyle again. Happy now.

[zorro]

I do agree that love does not have to be a zero-sum-game. Yes, when you have a second child you don't love the first one less.

BUT - just because it does not have to be zero-sum does not mean it is!!

There are many cases where the wife take the husband for granted when she has a lover. Or she is not sensitive to her husbands needs. Or in extreme cases, where she stops loving her husband. So, saying "love is not a zero-sum-game" is NOT accurate! It may or may not be...

That's right. Love is not inherently a zero-sum game unless a person makes it into one. A parent can choose to love only one child and let the others fend for themselves. And a husband can insist that if a woman gives love to another man that she loves him less. That is typically not the case unless the woman chooses to love only one person.

I have not heard either Sam or you say she wants to love only one person. And she has declared she is committed to you. Some emotional part of you is looking for guarantees and 100% outcomes -- but they do not and cannot exist. You seem to focus too much on how your relationship will end or you will lose Sam. Perhaps you have chosen to not allow her to have the natural feelings she wants to have, and she is struggling to figure out how she can play with Bill but not have the wondrous feelings she adores having. Essentially, you want her to play with other men but remain fully under your control. It isn't going to happen, so you need to let go of some control. And letting go of some control does not mean that your feelings do not count. At one time, perhaps out of frustration, you set Sam up to talk to you as though your feelings don't count. But your rapidly fluctuating ambivalence was driving her crazy! You couldn't make up your mind if you wanted Sam to fuck Bill or not!

As I reflect on this even more, I don't hear you necessarily trying to control Sam as much as you feel a need to control the outcome and the situation. Frankly, a great recipe for anxiety is to mandate that you have to have a certain outcome when you are smart enough to know you can't guarantee that outcome. The only way out of that is to change the mandate.

If sharing Sam with Bill brings her great joy, in the end you should consider going with the flow and seeing where it goes. I still believe she should be open to allowing you at least some participation in her play, because that will bring you satisfaction and really require little of her. She was hesitant to let Bill and you speak together, but when she did, it went fine. She is hesitant to let you watch or join in with Bill during play, but if she tries it, she may find that is just fine too, only different from playing solo.

Make up your mind: Let Samantha take her pleasure with Bill or kill Bill once and for all. Either way, you will not be able to control the outcome. Your marriage will be what it will be. Killing Bill may kill your own marriage by setting up more resentment in Sam than she would ever cop to. And her excluding you from the action (the DELICIOUS action) may set up resentment in you that will erode the marriage. Commit to finding out what each of you can do to make the situation better and do it. I see no other viable path.