Her Plan to Dip Toe in Hotwife Water

[slenderfish]

I think SF is very accommodating to SW's secrecy at this point. However, I see this as a HUGE problem ongoing. At this point - notwithstanding the voice mails - she is just short of having affairs (based solely on the idea that she is not sharing and this is not a LS "together" with her husband. Deleting and hiding text messages is a red flag. Are you in this "together" or not? Reading thepre-date texts and post-date texts is very arousing - this is where you get some spillover NRE from her. Sharing her (and his) emotions as they develop. This is a very important thing for you to be a part of as it will help you determine her level of NRE and if there are other emotional developments that need to be addressed to preserve the marriage. At this point, you are riding along at high speed with no vision...

I understand that for some, this is how they manage the LS but from my understanding of what SF wants - this is not it!

I have not posted in this thread for a while as I was hoping that he would start enjoying the aspects of the LS that appeal to him - his part of the deal. It has not happened and I'm wondering how he will put the Genie back into the bottle. I was inspired to post when I read that she had invited herself to his place in a foreign country.

What consideration did she have for her loving husband?

Did she invite him also?

Did she just assume that he would be OK with her travelling to a foreign country and spending an extended vacation with a lover without even discussing this with him?

SF - you need to get your understandings and agreements in place before you go past the point of no return. You may already be there...

XY

I fully agree. I understand why SF wants to be cautious. He has been more than accommodating since October(?). Lets hear what she has to say, but I think the discussion needs to be more direct rather than trying to get info through casual conversation. This thread has been going a while now and I can't remember if any rules were laid down early on. Now is a good time to review and renew.

Now is a good time to review and renew. And to agree on some guidelines. Apparently SW is under the impression that there are no guidelines but at the same time I purposely gave her a lot of free rope, knowing it'd be a chore bring back to within reach. Chore is now.

[samlowen]

How can she be under the impression that there are no guidelines when you've been talking with her this entire time about your expectations that you've shared here? Have you not been clear in letting her know that you're giving her the extra rope right now?

[slenderfish]

Secretly deleting text = pull the emergency brake.
Hard stop. Full stop.
6 years I've been a hotwife. 6 years reading this amazing forum with such great people.
So many of the crash and burn threads started with deleting texts, incomplete disclosures and secret calls.

or move to the cuckold forum and take your chances with her as it is already going.

Hotwife requires complete disclosure.

Well, I'm not sure how many are secret deletions and how many are just her fastidious nature. I can't really take a risk that the deletions are purposeful, because I do agree about full open transparency being a requirement. So the point stands tall, it's time to rebalance. We've started that process and it's showing more NRE than I expected, but at the same time the NRE will ultimately work to allow the rebalancing because if she really wants to continue with Mr. S then she will eventually be willing to make adjustments. I have pretty good confidence that we can get there, but it's going to be arduous, perhaps more so than I anticipated.

I have no interest in the cuckolding approach. Perhaps she has interest in that and isn't yet aware (kidding ...nervous laughter...).

She had a call from him last night and he left a voicemail (right before our "reclaim") that I saw flash onto her phone. It's late Friday afternoon now, the next day, and she hasn't mentioned anything about any texts or calls from him having come in since her return on Wednesday.

[slenderfish]

How can she be under the impression that there are no guidelines when you've been talking with her this entire time about your expectations that you've shared here? Have you not been clear in letting her know that you're giving her the extra rope right now?

She is negotiating already, in her own manner. She doesn't even realize that's what she is doing.

Which of course invites me to negotiate.

Of course, it's subtle from both sides. Working to a new middle.

We are married and love each other, and hold the marriage dear. I want for her what she wants for her, but she hasn't yet come to a point that she wants for me what I want for me. Therein lies the dissonance.

I haven't composed the grand update yet but in it you'll see that I have clearly stated to her in no uncertain terms that this cannot be sustained if there's not enough in it for me to feel like there is a reasonable balance, and that she should give deep consideration to that practical reality.

My challenge at this point it to continue trying for clarity of thought, and then to develop tactics to get to the new balance while avoiding irrevocable destruction along the way. I have to control my side of this while also controlling her side of this. I don't want to have her saying or doing anything in the heat of the conversation that cannot be fully taken back.

[slenderfish]

I think she is no longer even "wading into the pool", but now completely submerged with her legs open, right where the jets are !
Enjoy brother...so envious.

Yes, LOL.

[hwjen]

I'm as fastidious as the best of em.
My taxes are done on new years day.

No one deletes texts for neatness.

The warning signs are flashing red everywhere.

This is all like a drug. Your in the haze of it. Seeing but not seeing whats right in front of you.

She is deleting texts, not sharing details, leaving voicemessages to you containing the least possible amount of information (and I'm the WORST at sharing sexy details with my husband and can see that she's playing you on this).
A call from a recent FB in the days after should be a shared sexy event between HW and Husband.
That's not what's happening here.

I would hate to see this thread abandoned in a few months, eventually falling off to deletion because it all went terribly wrong.
Newbies won't get to see all the signs and will be doomed to repeat them.

Stop. Hard Stop. This is not hotwifing.
If you are happy to agree to something else and agree to take those risks, that's up to you.
But you all along have been wanting a full communication hotwife situation. That's not what is happening, and you know it.

Please be careful. Please.

[slenderfish]

I think SF is very accommodating to SW's secrecy at this point. However, I see this as a HUGE problem ongoing. At this point - notwithstanding the voice mails - she is just short of having affairs (based solely on the idea that she is not sharing and this is not a LS "together" with her husband. Deleting and hiding text messages is a red flag. Are you in this "together" or not? Reading thepre-date texts and post-date texts is very arousing - this is where you get some spillover NRE from her. Sharing her (and his) emotions as they develop. This is a very important thing for you to be a part of as it will help you determine her level of NRE and if there are other emotional developments that need to be addressed to preserve the marriage. At this point, you are riding along at high speed with no vision...

I understand that for some, this is how they manage the LS but from my understanding of what SF wants - this is not it!

I have not posted in this thread for a while as I was hoping that he would start enjoying the aspects of the LS that appeal to him - his part of the deal. It has not happened and I'm wondering how he will put the Genie back into the bottle. I was inspired to post when I read that she had invited herself to his place in a foreign country.

What consideration did she have for her loving husband?

Did she invite him also?

Did she just assume that he would be OK with her travelling to a foreign country and spending an extended vacation with a lover without even discussing this with him?

SF - you need to get your understandings and agreements in place before you go past the point of no return. You may already be there...

XY

I am enjoying many more aspects of this, as you'll see in my bigger update when I am able to post it. At the same time, we are in a place of setting precedents (and I've said these exact same words to SW) whether we know it or now, and inertia will necessarily convert these precedents into habits and acceptable behaviors, etc. So, as I related to her yesterday, we need to take stock and rebalance, to come to a new platform that works for both of us. I was ahead of her on hotwifing for a long time, and then intentionally encouraged her to go ahead of me, and now I have to catch up and we have to get to a balance place before proceeding.

I believe the NRE will be useful for this, because her desire is now reasonably on par with my desire (perhaps surpassing to an extent), so I probably need to get on it sooner vs. later.

[slenderfish]

I'm as fastidious as the best of em.
My taxes are done on new years day.

No one deletes texts for neatness.

The warning signs are flashing red everywhere.

This is all like a drug. Your in the haze of it. Seeing but not seeing whats right in front of you.

She is deleting texts, not sharing details, leaving voicemessages to you containing the least possible amount of information (and I'm the WORST at sharing sexy details with my husband and can see that she's playing you on this).
A call from a recent FB in the days after should be a shared sexy event between HW and Husband.
That's not what's happening here.

I would hate to see this thread abandoned in a few months, eventually falling off to deletion because it all went terribly wrong.
Newbies won't get to see all the signs and will be doomed to repeat them.

Stop. Hard Stop. This is not hotwifing.
If you are happy to agree to something else and agree to take those risks, that's up to you.
But you all along have been wanting a full communication hotwife situation. That's not what is happening, and you know it.

Please be careful. Please.

Yes, thank you. Your postings are spot on, and I'm so appreciative. Yesterday we did discuss (I pointed out) that the line she is on is taking herself to the place of an affair that she can put in my face and say I approved in advance. Kind of became clear to me when she mentioned her inviting herself to his place on the other continent. I paused and took that in, and then clearly stated to her that this will never work on that path, and that I've cautioned her about this result ever since we started on this adventure. I think it's inconvenient for her to remember there are reasonable boundaries, and then it is difficult to go back and adjust after the fact.

The communication (and Honesty and Trust!) is not where it should be. She is not being fully honest with herself or with me. She does not fully trust herself or me. Need to correct or abandon. Clear to me. To correct is the present challenge.

A question. I believe a lot of this emanates also from the fact that she has not been honest with Mr. S regarding what's really going on with her. He initially believed she had a "hall pass" as she said it in September and October, and then when he pressed last week she said it's an "open marriage." With that as her foundation, she has painted herself into a corner because she now is acting to Mr. S from that platform, which limits her ability to consider and execute the elements that are supposed to be in it for me. Now, I still have to determine whether she actually has any desire to consider these additional elements for me, or whether she is using her constructed platform as an excuse (and perhaps as a barrier) to these elements. But I can figure that part out readily enough. My question is whether it should be paramount to reset her platform for him to an honest one. What do you think?

[slenderfish]

I differ from Sam's appreciation of this to the extent that SW "inviting herself" to a beachfront cottage in another continent is highly significant. I agree it may ultimately not rise to the level of reality, but it definitely does show SW's degree of comfort with Mr S. Traveling to another continent for a mini vacation is significant also because it speaks to her understanding of the lifestyle. It is no longer a matter of should she, or could she, nor even a matter of feeling guilt. It is now more in the practical world of how and when this could be arranged conveniently. That is certainly indicative of her acceptance of her role as a HW.

I can see this side too but I lean more toward my 5000 ft vision because SW is already accustomed to money and international travel. My interpretation is that traveling to another continent is something that happens for her yearly and a vacation with Mr S isn't any real change from how she lives her live now (the travel and lifestyle, not the sleeping with another man part). I guess what I'm trying to say is, I would have expected SW to invite herself to his cottage well before she ever slept with him, before any hotwife activity had ever occurred.

I view her acceptance of her role as HW stemming more from the action she has taken with Mr. M, not from the invite to the cottage. Regardless of what I'm guessing at, this is all a good development in the big picture. I also feel you have given some fantastic advice from the beginning and had some really spot on observations. Fish has mentioned that too. You're on fire with your observations, imo.

Hear, hear!

[hwjen]

My question is whether it should be paramount to reset her platform for him to an honest one. What do you think?
[/quote]

How the FB views things has no bearing on the relationship between HW and Husband.

I play single. App dating.
Which is all that's available to me where we live (no SLS or swingers here).

I have a wonderful guy, divorced, sweet, that thinks I'm separated and sowing oats.
It's actually hotter for me this way. He cares to please more than my earlier FB dates off SLS.
I made it clear that I don't want a relationship from the jump and he respects that.

I most certainly tease my husband about my single slutty pussy heading out the door into another mans bed, but its just a game between us. Full disclosure always. Husband has full access to my phone. Which is actually hotter!! I get to see and feel his reaction to our game!
Was a bit reluctant to share that I had my first orgasm on another mans mouth - of course
orgasm on another mans cock - absolutely.
did I downplay things a bit and worry about hurting husbands feelings - yes.
And I quickly realized that was all a mistake. Full disclosure is what makes everything super hot.

Handing my husband my phone with a message from a new guy I want to date = hot.
Letting him see a text about how good I was in bed - hot!!

Your wife is keeping all that from you as either a power play, control issue or she's actually having sex as an affair and enjoying it.
None of which works long term and could end in disaster.

Sure there are ways I kick things up a notch by taking a bit of control, but its only hot because immediately after its all fully disclosed.
At its best - and most functional - its a dance of full disclosure plus pushing hot sexy buttons as control is passed back and forth.
I'm a control freak - but your wife is something else.
You're right about her pursuing private affairs only to throw it back at you because you "gave permission". From what I've read, you did not. You wanted a hotwife. Currently you have a wife having multiple affairs and sharing just the slightest, least amount of info to keep you in the haze of it so you don't balk.

Lot's of ways to play the game. I only get nervous when its clear husband and wife are not on the same page - or on your case, playing two completely different games.

She's hot, beautiful, sexy. Your mesmerized, the brain chemical drug like haze of her being super sexual. But you singed up to be her partner in this, to share it all, take the journey together.
She did not. She never agreed to it and each step of the way has made it clear she was doing it another way.

Take her ride, her way - or stop the train.
If you want a hotwife - step up, be her alpha and protect your relationship.
If you're happy as a beta, which is how she is playing the game - than you need to be ok when one of her guys becomes her alpha.

[regular3]

You are doing a really fantastic job negotiating your way through the heightened emotions of both yourself and your wife.
There isn't a rulebook for this and while everyone on OHW has similarities in their stories to yours, your path is unique as is everyone else's.
It's good to get the advice from others as it can help you find answers in general but no one else is living your life and the relationship you have with your wife.
That being said, my two cents is it is always good to keep perspective on HW activities. Essentially it is just sex and its a vehicle to you and your wife having a heightened sex life with each other.
Surely that's the core of why this is happening in the first place.

[4expcouple]

Frankly it only matters what you and she think, what she told Mr S or anyone else is irrelevant, they can all be abandoned at the drop of the hat. You really need some ground rules or boundaries that can't be crossed that work for both of you. Her thinking it's ok to even commit to going away with anybody at any time without talking to you first is just disrespectful. That being said, she also needs the ability to make her own decisions and this can only be done if there are agreed upon rules. That gives both of you comfort AND freedom within reasonable parameters.

Some of the parameters we have set up are - On a date she has complete control, she can do anything she wants. If she chooses to share with me it's a bonus but she's in charge of her own body. Of course if she never shared, I'd probably have a conversation with her.
1 - No overnighters, always has to come home before sunrise.
2 - Only communicate through Google Voice for phone and chat that way we can both see what is going on plus we can dump the number in case of a problem.
3 - Nothing at our house.
4 - Stay at least 10 miles from the house to avoid running into people we may know. (daughter caught her once so that doesn't always work)
5 - No playing on business trips without explicit permission. This is typically ok as I'd set her up on a hot date if she wanted one.

Good luck on your journey!

[2inUPMichigan]

Have the two of you sat down and had a completely open and honest conversation where you both lay your cards on the table without blaming each other or getting emotional?

Because that is what it takes if you want to find a workable solution for both of you. It takes a communication which means not only talking with each other but listening too.

Asking here will get you a lot of opinions from people that will tell you what works for THEM but that does not mean it will work for the two of you. Only the two of you know what is best for you.

Good luck with getting over this bump in the road - together.

[BallSpanking]

Frankly, I think the whole texting deletion is overwrought. It has been her habit over the years to delete texts, and she is being extra fastidious, yes, in deleting Mr S's texts. But remember, SW had never been a HW before, and is not yet comfortable sharing everything, not with her husband, and possibly not even fully understanding the effect of her secrecy herself.

The disclosure aspect of HW'ing is one of the most fraught in the lifestyle. Each couple has to hash out where the boundaries will be, how exacting they will be, and how much wiggle room is allowed. Remember, grilling a HW for a blow-by-blow description is highly intrusive, no one likes to get the third degree. So, it would be ideal if SW realizes the importance of her timely and substantial disclosures to her husband, otherwise he's flying in the dark. And that is not a comfortable or sustainable dynamic long term.

To the extent SF can allay her fears over disclosure, emphasizing that he remains supportive, engaged, and delighted to share her experiences, she will likely loosen-up and start being more forthcoming. As mentioned by one of the posters here, if she can understand that her journey is also SF's journey, and that he too needs to feel included in the eroticism of her encounters, albeit after the fact, she will start to share more openly.

Delaying the retelling until the appropriate moment is important. Better to have this interaction as you eat her pussy and she gets horney retelling the encounter, usually makes for a mutually satisfying experience. Also, the degree of 'intrusion' is lessened by the mutual attention and sensuality taking place during the reclaiming.

[happystrife]

My 2 cents. Well first let me say ya’ll are doing fucking great and you’re wife is a total smoke show (as are her friends). slenderfish, it goes with lout saying that you're patience, temperament, encouragement and tactful guidance of SW has been something else. you’re steady eddy and its impressive and clearly paying off big time. You’ve got a gorgeous wife, balls of steel and designing a lifestyle with your partner that most only get to fantasize about! its pure erotica with the most delicious type of angst.

so here’s what I’m thinking, and forgive me if I haven’t done the best job of keeping up with the nitty gritty details, but I just can’t help but feel you two have not found a suitor thats perfectly compelling. SW is like a natural monopoly, she’s hot asf and attached, she’s the price setter. I’d be hard pressed not to push her toward getting on bumble or tinder and putting herself out there. she’s going to find dudes locally, you can be involved bc she’ll be giddy at the number of studs she’s going to match with and I bet she’ll be excited to show you. someone local and through an app where you have visibility into her field of suitors gives both of you more control over your domain. it removes variables. neither of you should be making any compromises here bc she doesn’t have to. plus her interactions w a bull / side piece, whatever nomenclature you chose, will happen close to home or actually in your home. become masters of your own domain. be selfish. tell her not to settle. tell her this is all about her. encourage. no downside to checking it out. you’ve come this far and you can always shut it down.

btw dating apps have the option to auto block facebook friends and in some cases contacts too. so as long as she’s fb friends w her niece or whatever, no harm no foul. oh and she doesn’t have to worry about women finding her anyway, unless they’re gay or bi and into women her age!

[happystrife]

BTW this is role reversal shit. its new to her, like breaking in a new pair of shoes, growing pains, v counter to social conditioning, etc etc. so although I’ve seen some good directional advice, see the grey in things. not much, when we’re talking about relationships and navigating the complexities of human interaction, is purely binary. give her some slack, give yourself some slack, step back and just shift this stuff to be more localized. see my last post. it can be a solution. right the ship.

[coastalkid]

Lots of advice huh? Everyone seems to have an opinion on the deletion of texts. Does she still ask for your help in composing email/text replies? I'm thinking that may be a good time to bring up the topic. Both of you need to know what is a "big deal" to the other and why, and what things you believe to be insignificant but are a "big deal" to your partner. You're far enough into this that an honest sincere discussion would smooth out a lot of misreads. You've had a wait and see and anticipate kind of approach. It may be time to be proactive and speak up before you do have to call it quits.

[slenderfish]

BTW this is role reversal shit. its new to her, like breaking in a new pair of shoes, growing pains, v counter to social conditioning, etc etc. so although I’ve seen some good directional advice, see the grey in things. not much, when we’re talking about relationships and navigating the complexities of human interaction, is purely binary. give her some slack, give yourself some slack, step back and just shift this stuff to be more localized. see my last post. it can be a solution. right the ship.

Yes, we did start the conversation last night and it's clear I (just speaking for me here) am overthinking it.

I think the local solution will be the best, but we are presently in the initial iteration with Mr. S and SW does have a pretty good dose of NRE.

I play with the cards in my hand. NRE as the governing element and asserting my needs. Pretty simple in concept, just have to navigate it through the proper conversations.

I am attempting to get to a new and proper balance, to continue as a foundation with this iteration. Need to overcome her penchant for secrecy, at least for awhile, and then as we both get more into the flow of it all, I'll probably not really care about casual texts and/or phone calls.

Also need to establish the protocol for "reclaiming" in the manner I prefer. To me, that's the balancing factor; she gets her HW encounter by herself in the way that is preferable for her, and therefore I will support from afar and get my encounter with SW in a time and way that is preferable to me.

Separately, time will pass and if SW gets impatient for Mr. S, that'll be the time to suggest a new man to fill the gap (pun intended), but in this case someone who can come into her (our) lifestyle with a clear understanding in advance. And who knows, if this one starts being more practicable, then Mr. S may just remain an infrequent encounter, for when SW is visiting her home town.

[BallSpanking]

No advice on my post, only a couple of questions ...
1- Was there bareback with Mr S?
2- Did SW share her lovely ass with him?


(PS- I did read your guess as a betting man, I was just wondering if there has been a definitive answer ...)

[slenderfish]

Update: We started the conversations and, as expected, was a bit rocky but we stabilize the boat rather quickly. SW does not want to lose Mr. S and has been talking as if she can just give him up, but when pressed she doesn't want to do that. It's a big card I can play against her but that would not be fair.

I don't have time to go into detail, but a few tidbits:

1) She is accepting a different name for this sexy alter ego of herself, Pinky for now. If this sticks, I may begin referring to her as Pinky instead of SW in this thread.

2) She is really sold on Mr. S for now. Said she wants to see him again. Really wants to see him again. Wants him to come out here to see her in January, and has asked me to clear some dates so that she may communicate those to him. Acknowledges certain elements with Mr. S that have made it difficult for her to be a pure HW with him have emanated from the fact that he is not fully informed about the situation (e.g. he thinks it's an open marriage instead of hotwifing). And certain difficulties for my side of it have also emanated from that same fact. We've agreed to revisit and rebalance such that I am happier with the ongoing process and I'm more involved (even if only before and after the fact).

3) Said even if she gives up hotwifing, she doesn't envision giving up other men(!). I used the metaphor of the "genie out of the bottle" and she seems to agree. Said she might suggest some kind of monogamish lifestyle for us. I think this is a good sign, but I did circle that energy back to hotwifing and there is sits.

4) I think she believes having sex with me is a big wild card she is able to play. She's probably correct in large part, but at the same time I'm happy she's been playing this card.

We will continue these conversations. I'll report as I am able.

Including Wed Nov 25 through last night, (and I just pointed this out to her about a half hour ago) she has had some kind of sex eight out of the eleven nights, and PIV sex seven of the eleven nights. I am certain this is the most in her life.

I woke up extra early this morning to make the hour-long drive to meet three guys for a big mountain bike climb/ride. Sitting on the floor just where her hand would drop it upon falling asleep was her favorite vibrator, which she apparently engaged at some point overnight while I was asleep.

Perhaps we'll add to the tally tonight!

[slenderfish]

No advice on my post, only a couple of questions ...
1- Was there bareback with Mr S?
2- Did SW share her lovely ass with him?


(PS- I did read your guess as a betting man, I was just wondering if there has been a definitive answer ...)

1 - Yes bareback both night Sun and Mon. Said there is volume of cum that runs out.

2 - Still unclear, not specified in her summary so I'll guess not, but I still haven't asked outright. I'll get to the bottom of this as soon as I am able (pun intended).

[slenderfish]

Lots of advice huh? Everyone seems to have an opinion on the deletion of texts. Does she still ask for your help in composing email/text replies? I'm thinking that may be a good time to bring up the topic. Both of you need to know what is a "big deal" to the other and why, and what things you believe to be insignificant but are a "big deal" to your partner. You're far enough into this that an honest sincere discussion would smooth out a lot of misreads. You've had a wait and see and anticipate kind of approach. It may be time to be proactive and speak up before you do have to call it quits.

We spoke about this a bit and she said that the texts and call(s) are no big deal to her. She's happy to do whatever I request on those points. Said she now realizes these are a big deal to me and said she will keep them for me, etc. I take her at her word on this, and will see how it goes in practice over time.

[veub]

I'm as fastidious as the best of em.
My taxes are done on new years day.

No one deletes texts for neatness.

The warning signs are flashing red everywhere.

This is all like a drug. Your in the haze of it. Seeing but not seeing whats right in front of you.

I suspect she's been deleting texts for a long time for the same reason she is now. And not for neatness.

[BallSpanking]

LOL!
Monogamish is like pregnantish ... Either you are, or you are not.
Giving up on HW'ing but not giving up seeing other men? That is an oxymoron (self contradicting)
On the matter of the texts ... Props to her, and you for clearing that up right quick.
On the bareback trysts ... Congratulations! But this is an area that does require strict care and control.

I think SW's interest in exploration is only just getting started. It must be exciting and thrilling to her, even though she does not yet have a notion on her future adventures, but given her ardor to see Mr S again, and her self-invite to vacationing with him (which may be a no-go), are indications that she is ready to dive into the pool. Maybe 'wade' into the pool fits her personality better, but her libido is only likely to increase (It looks like it has already).

Maybe this would be a good time to get her a sexier wardrobe for her everyday.

[Aureus]

No advice on my post, only a couple of questions ...
1- Was there bareback with Mr S?
2- Did SW share her lovely ass with him?


(PS- I did read your guess as a betting man, I was just wondering if there has been a definitive answer ...)

1 - Yes bareback both night Sun and Mon. Said there is volume of cum that runs out.

2 - Still unclear, not specified in her summary so I'll guess not, but I still haven't asked outright. I'll get to the bottom of this as soon as I am able (pun intended).

Will you try and anal train her until her next visit with Mr S? I think it could be worth the effort.