Kill Bill...Asking wife to dump BF?!?!

[Samanthasman]

Mother's Day is another family day. When I asked her what she wanted to do today's she asked me if she could see Bill for 2 hours, while she and I are working everything out. She said "I understand we may still stop this whole thing, but it would be just for fun activity in the interim". I basically said I think we have a lot to work out, and she huffed a little but said "you're right"

We have been having many long conversations. Her contention is that she knows she screwed up with the lying, but there was no cheating and that although there is no excuse for lying, she was just being a little bit of a brat and having some conversations behind my back - that she did not want to have to explain or talk about.

Her argument is that she really really believes that we can make this work. We were close to all reaching an understanding and all getting what we wanted, and then we hit some bumps and things spiraled out of control. She says I should not worry about this guy. She does not love him, she likes him a ton, but even if she did love him or grow to love him, it's not a threat to our marriage. She says she loved her old BF that she saw for several years earlier in our relationship, and never left me for him - and he had asked her to on several occasions. She says I need to just relax and let this relationship work itself out - let her see bill, let her have lots of sex with both of us, let me just let her take the wheel and sit back and enjoy the ride of my life.

I tell her I'm pissed about the lying. She says "I know". I asked her 100 times if she wants a divorse, separation, trial separation, etc. And she just say "no, silly, don't even talked about things like that!". I ask how important I am to her and she say "a ten". I ask how important bill is to her, and she says "an 8!". I said "your fucking up a ten to get your 8", and she says "I know, but I really really think we can make this work, and I really think you want to make this work, just relax!"

The honest truth is that I do want her to sleep with Bill... But I don't want to harm the marriage, and that's the higher priority.

She argues "look, we've hit some bumps. How about we try doing things my way for a while and see how that works?"

I guess you could say we are in a holding pattern. I can just let go completely and let this thing ride out and have a ball maybe forever... Or until it crashes and burns.... Or I can put my foot down hard and ride out the fight and resentment... Or I can negotiate a compromise that brings bill back into the relationship but with some restrictions around it...

[sidestreet]

She was doing it her way and it wasn't working for you. When you asked her to stop she has started trying to manipulate you into letting her continue doing it her way. That is a big red flag to me.

[Samanthasman]

She was doing it her way and it wasn't working for you. When you asked her to stop she has started trying to manipulate you into letting her continue doing it her way. That is a big red flag to me.

Certainly the red flags wave been waving for a while here...

[Iamtheman]

I'll politely disagree sidestreet. I think prior, Samantha had agreed to SamanthadMan's rules and found she either couldn't play by them or didn't want to. She made some very poor decisions. They, as a couple, need to work through those and build a better relationship on what they've learned. That is first and foremost in importance.

After that happens. If that happens. I think SM should listen to S. Maybe hwing isn't her thing. Or at least not hwing as SM thinks of it. I hear S saying that she wants a happy home but likes a boyfriend outside of the marriage. If this BF is making videos, taking pictures, and sharing rounds with hubby...why not hear her version?

[Samanthasman]

I'll politely disagree sidestreet. I think prior, Samantha had agreed to SamanthadMan's rules and found she either couldn't play by them or didn't want to. She made some very poor decisions. They, as a couple, need to work through those and build a better relationship on what they've learned. That is first and foremost in importance.

After that happens. If that happens. I think SM should listen to S. Maybe hwing isn't her thing. Or at least not hwing as SM thinks of it. I hear S saying that she wants a happy home but likes a boyfriend outside of the marriage. If this BF is making videos, taking pictures, and sharing rounds with hubby...why not hear her version?

Yes, Samantha clearly wants to do this differently than I do. I don't know if her way would work not. It just makes me uncomfortable, and has for some time.

[sidestreet]

I'll politely disagree sidestreet. I think prior, Samantha had agreed to SamanthadMan's rules and found she either couldn't play by them or didn't want to. She made some very poor decisions. They, as a couple, need to work through those and build a better relationship on what they've learned. That is first and foremost in importance.

I'll politely, and respectfully, disagree with you as well It sounds like samsman wanted to hotwife, and his wife took it from there and did things her way with Bill, regardless of how that made samsman feel. Cases in point (from the original post in this thread):

Samantha only plays solo - she does not feel comfortable being watched live, MFM, etc. but she does take pics and video to share. She always debriefs me and I always reclaim her. I'm getting tons of reclaim sex from this.

But.. At the same time, my wife also spends a ton of non sexual time with Bill. Talking about life, music, family, business, hobbies, etc. Basically lots of the same conversations we had when we were dating and ultimately falling in love with each other long ago. This makes me jealous.

Then they started going on 2-3 day trips together (3x), with my reluctant permission... This made me very jealous. My wife is a world class "compartmentalizer". When she's with him she communicates minimally with me. So, these trips basically made her happy and me miserable. And, I get no joy from this sort of misery.

None of that sounds like she was following her husbands rules/wishes. It sounds like she was constantly pushing his boundaries and manipulating him into allowing it. We only get his side of this of course, but in the absence of more information...

[FNQLivin]

Honestly, as someone who doesn't know you or your wife and only has your side of the story to go on, she sounds like an addict does.

"Sure, just give me this one last drink/cigarette/<insert drug of addiction> and I'll get over it. I have this under control. I could give this up if I wanted to"

[zorro]

SM, as you know, from the start I had hoped that Sam and you could make a good go of this. I also share in the delight of having my loved one fuck other men, which she loves to do. I was troubled when I first heard of the first triggers of uncompassionate flipping you off when she said in the face of hearing your discomfort with her fucking Bill so much, "You are just going to have to live with it." That was not a loving response.

Because I have my poly side, I personally would be more comfortable if R were loving another man. I do not feel that love is a zero-sum game. Your hot button is the thought that Sam will love another man enough to leave you; in that event, you would label yourself a loser. That is a potent brain trigger for fear, resentment, and shutting down. But it still is only a thought. I am not so worried about Sam's having fond or even love feelings for Bill. I am more focused on how much she loves you. That "just going to have to live with it" comment was not loving. Not kind. Not thinking of you. And her lying speaks ill of her personal character. As I said in one of my posts, if Sam continues to see Bill and sneak around with it, you would see her personal character more clearly. Sam may be physically and personally charming, but there is a dark streak in there that you have to come to understand more deeply. Yes, everyone has a dark side, and Sam seems to have hers. You both need to know what that is about. That dark side has taken a potentially beautiful, erotic experience and twisted it into something disheartening.

I think Sam and you have a lot more to keep talking about. Until you reach a level of comfort with her, I would definitely not give in to her manipulation to let her fuck Bill and keep you in her pocket. The best definition of manipulation, in my book, is someone trying to get you to do what you don't want to do. It is complicated because your HW hubby brain wants her to fuck other men (and I do get that) but you feel afraid of losing her. And a huge part of you at this time does not want her to fuck Bill. Her blanket reassuring words do not assure you. You are not really trusting her, so her begging you to trust her is going to fall flat. Those are the emotional facts I hear.

I don't know where this interchange is going to lead. I cannot tell you, as some have here, to "put your foot down" or whatever. You need to follow your gut with this one. Something inside you is telling you there is something wrong here, and none of us really know what it is yet. But you must honor what you feel.

So, my perhaps unsolicited counsel is to keep talking with Sam. Explore what led her to say the hurtful and cold and deceitful things she did. Both of you need to understand her much more deeply. As the layers peel back and you see Sam more realistically and honestly, as you come to know the truth about her, you will know what to do. And I certainly do not know what that will be. In the meantime, do not ignore your feelings and give in to her manipulations. You will be disappointed in yourself, and at some level Sam would be disappointed in you too if you did. It is fair for her to ask for what she wants. But with freedom go responsibilities. If your experience teaches all of us here, a HW does not just get freedom to fuck and expand her sexual life, she has to deepen her commitment and obligations to her marriage and her husband's feelings. If she does, she may feel a deeper love than she ever has before.

Z

[Iamtheman]

Sidestreet, I think your examples support my point as well.

I think SM called S a serial monogamist. It feels like she's adding more lovers to support SM's version of the fantasy. She may be content with Bill, Sid, and SM but she's pursuing something else that doesn't appeal to her.

If her version doesn't appeal to SM, then maybe it's time to walk away. At least for now. His way led to near disaster. If SM thinks her way leads to the same or causes him uneasiness...walk away. It's just sex!

[Samanthasman]

SM, as you know, from the start I had hoped that Sam and you could make a good go of this. I also share in the delight of having my loved one fuck other men, which she loves to do. I was troubled when I first heard of the first triggers of uncompassionate flipping you off when she said in the face of hearing your discomfort with her fucking Bill so much, "You are just going to have to live with it." That was not a loving response.

Because I have my poly side, I personally would be more comfortable if R were loving another man. I do not feel that love is a zero-sum game. Your hot button is the thought that Sam will love another man enough to leave you; in that event, you would label yourself a loser. That is a potent brain trigger for fear, resentment, and shutting down. But it still is only a thought. I am not so worried about Sam's having fond or even love feelings for Bill. I am more focused on how much she loves you. That "just going to have to live with it" comment was not loving. Not kind. Not thinking of you. And her lying speaks ill of her personal character. As I said in one of my posts, if Sam continues to see Bill and sneak around with it, you would see her personal character more clearly. Sam may be physically and personally charming, but there is a dark streak in there that you have to come to understand more deeply. Yes, everyone has a dark side, and Sam seems to have hers. You both need to know what that is about. That dark side has taken a potentially beautiful, erotic experience and twisted it into something disheartening.

I think Sam and you have a lot more to keep talking about. Until you reach a level of comfort with her, I would definitely not give in to her manipulation to let her fuck Bill and keep you in her pocket. The best definition of manipulation, in my book, is someone trying to get you to do what you don't want to do. It is complicated because your HW hubby brain wants her to fuck other men (and I do get that) but you feel afraid of losing her. And a huge part of you at this time does not want her to fuck Bill. Her blanket reassuring words do not assure you. You are not really trusting her, so her begging you to trust her is going to fall flat. Those are the emotional facts I hear.

I don't know where this interchange is going to lead. I cannot tell you, as some have here, to "put your foot down" or whatever. You need to follow your gut with this one. Something inside you is telling you there is something wrong here, and none of us really know what it is yet. But you must honor what you feel.

So, my perhaps unsolicited counsel is to keep talking with Sam. Explore what led her to say the hurtful and cold and deceitful things she did. Both of you need to understand her much more deeply. As the layers peel back and you see Sam more realistically and honestly, as you come to know the truth about her, you will know what to do. And I certainly do not know what that will be. In the meantime, do not ignore your feelings and give in to her manipulations. You will be disappointed in yourself, and at some level Sam would be disappointed in you too if you did. It is fair for her to ask for what she wants. But with freedom go responsibilities. If your experience teaches all of us here, a HW does not just get freedom to fuck and expand her sexual life, she has to deepen her commitment and obligations to her marriage and her husband's feelings. If she does, she may feel a deeper love than she ever has before.

Z

She does not want to hurt me. Part of the lying comes from her unilaterally not telling me things so as to not hurt me. When she says "my way or the high way" (not her exact words) it's a temporary and emotional reaction, and she always has retreated as emotions cool.

My big issue now is trust. I can forgive anything but lying. If she says "I fucked bill, I'm sorry" I could forgive that easier than finding out about a lie.

I've asked her to double down on her commitment to honesty. To her credit and her fault she admits "I don't know if I really can even trust myself to be 100% honest with you.. I mean I said I would be and I was not.. So I just don't know if making more commitments that I have proven myself incapable of keeping makes sense". I tell her "I appreciate that honesty, but where does that leave us...?"

She admits she's not sure how to proceed, but she wants to keep the family together and she wants to find a way to keep bill in her life.

[sidestreet]

Not one thing you've said about this situation makes me think "give it a try". Absolutely everything you say in every successive thread makes me think "run away from this situation and never involve Bill again".

[agawim]

SM....she is chipping away.....

Whatever you end up doing does not matter to me but I hope you will be happy with the result.

I was talking to my HGF about your situation and she said that Sam is behaving exactly like the a friend of ours was not to long ago. If you want to know how that is progressing just send me a pm.

Wim

[livedit]

SM do not lose the faith. Stay a course you can believe in. Be good to yourself and your wife.

[upforit74]

Since there seems to be a range of opinions offered I thought I would venture mine. I could be completely wrong but it appears to me that Sam is madly in love with Bill. I also believe, SM, that her love for you is seriously diminished but that she wants to keep you on the sidelines to see how things play out with Bill. It could also be guilt that is keeping her with you at the moment.

Recall the list of things she wrote about Bill. That's the mind of someone who is head over heels in love and it also sounds quite immature. I don't know if this is too harsh but I am wondering about your wife's mental state. She sounds needy and manipulative. Could she have a personality disorder? It sounds a little like that.

In any case I think your relationship is spiraling and at risk of going down the sink.

The only thing that I would consider doing at this point would be to end HW'ing for say a year or two. Tell her absolutely under no circumstances is she to ever see,call or even talk about Bill. Your firmness may just impress her enough to stay with you, once Bill is a memory. On the other hand she might dump you. If she dumps you she would have anyway so you've got nothing to lose.

What is definitely NOT going to happen is that you and her go along with her new arrangement, they continue to see each other occasionally and you get off on it, then someday in the future you two look back at this period with happy memories.

good luck and best wishes. I hope that I'm completely wrong.

[Samanthasman]

Since there seems to be a range of opinions offered I thought I would venture mine. I could be completely wrong but it appears to me that Sam is madly in love with Bill. I also believe, SM, that her love for you is seriously diminished but that she wants to keep you on the sidelines to see how things play out with Bill. It could also be guilt that is keeping her with you at the moment.

Recall the list of things she wrote about Bill. That's the mind of someone who is head over heels in love and it also sounds quite immature. I don't know if this is too harsh but I am wondering about your wife's mental state. She sounds needy and manipulative. Could she have a personality disorder? It sounds a little like that.

In any case I think your relationship is spiraling and at risk of going down the sink.

The only thing that I would consider doing at this point would be to end HW'ing for say a year or two. Tell her absolutely under no circumstances is she to ever see,call or even talk about Bill. Your firmness may just impress her enough to stay with you, once Bill is a memory. On the other hand she might dump you. If she dumps you she would have anyway so you've got nothing to lose.

What is definitely NOT going to happen is that you and her go along with her new arrangement, they continue to see each other occasionally and you get off on it, then someday in the future you two look back at this period with happy memories.

good luck and best wishes. I hope that I'm completely wrong.

There is no mental illness issue here. There is a sadness that goes along with a broken heart that goes along with missing someone you deeply care about. There is anger and emotion and lot of feelings here.

[SmilingHusband]

hang in there....

[lozrob66]

Kill Bill!

I have always been a sucker when a woman tries to manipulate me to cover her true actions. Even when others have told me directly I have tried to conjur reason to dispell any doubt. It is only upon disaster do I realise my inability to see my poor decision making when the pretty lady gave me the run around. I feel such a fool.
Luckily you seem to be standing your ground with encouragement from the entirely reasonable voices here. From reading your posts your wife is very emotionally attached to Bill. It's going to take a while for her to get over him. When it comes to Bill, I would trust her as far as I could throw her. At least for the foreseeable future. The strength of her feelings should give you clear indication that you have taken the correct option.
Any joy you may have had with Bill is not worth the effort and doubts we have witnessed you enduring. What is quite clear is without Bill you have peace of mind once again. Not now, but soon I hope.

[Happymcshove]

Just go have divorce papers prepared. Come home plop them on the table and say me or him. You have 30 mins tomake up your mind. If you choose him just sign these and get out.

Samsman that's how simple it is to put your foot down. Do you have the balls to do it?

[Fotodom]

All the posts have been about S and SM; what about Bill, who knows that SM wanted her to stop, she didn't, and He didn't. (they are talking, and apparently making plans, see that she wanted to see him Today. Also, how come he is so free? He's married, right? On Mother's Day he'd have time for S?). IMO, he has No respect for their marriage, and S knows this, they are enabling each other. To me this is one of several Major concerns, and has to bear on SM's actions from here.

Edit;

When I asked her what she wanted to do today's she asked me if she could see Bill for 2 hours, while she and I are working everything out.

She says I should not worry about this guy. She does not love him, she likes him a ton, but even if she did love him or grow to love him, it's not a threat to our marriage.

"I don't know if I really can even trust myself to be 100% honest with you..

These are not the actions of someone who is not 'in love'.

[Samanthasman]

All the posts have been about S and SM; what about Bill, who knows that SM wanted her to stop, she didn't, and He didn't. (they are talking, and apparently making plans, see that she wanted to see him Today. Also, how come he is so free? He's married, right? On Mother's Day he'd have time for S?). IMO, he has No respect for their marriage, and S knows this, they are enabling each other. To me this is one of several Major concerns, and has to bear on SM's actions from here.

Edit;

When I asked her what she wanted to do today's she asked me if she could see Bill for 2 hours, while she and I are working everything out.

She says I should not worry about this guy. She does not love him, she likes him a ton, but even if she did love him or grow to love him, it's not a threat to our marriage.

"I don't know if I really can even trust myself to be 100% honest with you..

These are not the actions of someone who is not 'in love'.

Whether she is love, lust, NRE, or whatever, I don't know that it makes a difference at this point. She has strong feelings that are causing problems...

[Samanthasman]

Getting Closer...

We had our best talk yet. Really communicating.

She asked me what it would take to bring back Bill, and I laid it out for her. Everything starts with trust and she admits that she's not sure she can be trusted.

It obvious we both have conflicted interests. I have my big head and little head making decisions. She has her head, heart, and pussy making decisions for her.

Her big head is saying that maybe Bill is not such a good idea...

[DaBolts]

You will have good talks and bad ones. Stay the course and expect lots of ups and downs until he is out of her thoughts.

[davidm205]

If you waver then you will loose respect and more.

The overall wisdom you read here speaks volumes.

There should be no conflict with your decision for it is sound and backed by many things which show themselves with the continued turmoil.

When we love someone so much we tend to fail to fully see the faults and weak points.

This Bill thing seems to be akin to a drug habit where the person just wants there drug or Bill.

Understand and know this. What is the first thing that is best for someone with a habit gone out of control? Cold turkey or more drug/Bill.

Would you let a person you love expose themselve to that which causes the habit? What is the treatment?

[zorro]

No divorce papers on the table for now. Keep up the talking. Neither you nor Sam trust her. That is a good but painful place to start. She needs to tell you why she doubts she can trust herself.

This may be one of the most important discussions of your life.

[Jdotswift]

Personally, I can't understand why you and Samantha are discussing whether or not Bill should remain in your lives. He's having a toxic effect on your relationship. That said, whatever it is you decide to do, you need some clarity on what YOU want or don't want before you start trying to negotiate terms with your wife. Make a decision and stick to it. You're all over the place right now. If I was Samantha, that would be driving me crazy.