Her Plan to Dip Toe in Hotwife Water

[rooster444]

Is it time to assume the meeting with the "sex-positive therapist" didn't go well?

Why the silence?

[fraktastic]

Keeping us updated isn’t his full time job. Cut him some slack.

Good luck, SF! Excited to hear from you when you have time.

[rooster444]

I understand, cut me some slack.

[slenderfish]

I understand, cut me some slack.

Slack cut, great lengths of it.

It is going well, but there's a lot of setting the groundwork that has to occur in order to make any real progress.

I can already see that the therapist is starting to make inroads (very early days) as to attitudes about sex, porn, preferences, partner's desires and needs, the power exchange dynamic in sex vs. the relationship in general, attitudes about her body, challenging general assumptions, etc.

Finally, the schedules could not be coordinated over the past few weeks (with my travel and the therapist's travel) but we seem to be getting back into a weekly pattern.

We had a session yesterday and will have another on Monday.

[slenderfish]

A couple of excerpts from the therapist conversations regarding fantasies:

SW: I don't have fantasies, ever. Just never did, never do.

TP: So what do you think about when you are self-pleasuring?

SW: Just the pleasant feeling "down there" as it builds into, presumably, a nice orgasm.

TP: It's been established in research that active and powerful fantasies result in active and powerful orgasms.

TP: Do you ever watch porn?

SW: Not except when SF wants to bring it into our sex effort from time to time. But I don't like it. The professional women all are paid to do it and are being exploited. And the amateurs are obviously performing for the camera and their husbands. Not enjoying it.

TP: There is such a wide variety and women do enjoy sex and performing. Porn is so huge and prevalent, there's something our there for everybody. If you decide to try and find what's for you.

TP: What do you watch that puts you in the mood?

SW: The Notebook when Ryan Gosling.....

TP; Okay, so you like the romantic, emotional connection?

SW: Yes.

TP: There is a lot of women-produced porn that take the woman's point of view.

SW: Oh.

===========

SW: Can you believe SF asked me to sleep with another man?

TP: Oh, so you (SF) have a cuckold fetish?

SF: Wife-sharing is my term, but it's not too different from cuckold. So let's just go with "yes" for now.

TP: (smiles) Okay, then SW, how did it go?

SW: I only did it for him.

TP: Was there any part of it you enjoyed?

SW: (sheepishly, little smile) Well, I suppose but the guy got more out of it than I did. Also that he wanted me.

TP: Let's return to this subject somewhere down the road. Good to know it's in the background.

[veub]

And the amateurs are obviously performing for the camera and their husbands. Not enjoying it.

SW: I only did it for him

Have you ever considered that she doesn't want to be treated as nothing more than an object for you to jerk off to?

Whatever she may or may not have done in the past with some letter of the alphabet, it seems that she's not willing to sign up as your personal porn star.

[slenderfish]

And the amateurs are obviously performing for the camera and their husbands. Not enjoying it.

SW: I only did it for him

Have you ever considered that she doesn't want to be treated as nothing more than an object for you to jerk off to?

Whatever she may or may not have done in the past with some letter of the alphabet, it seems that she's not willing to sign up as your personal porn star.

Yes, this concept comes to mind often enough.

It's a bit of a tapdance, no? I mean, if this is a kink then either she wants to play a bit with the kink or not.

I mean, she prefers missionary position to all others, so I'm happy to remember that when we are engaged in sexual activity. Though I much prefer doggy style. We can find a moving balance on these two matters.

She knows I get a big charge out of other men finding her sexy and attractive, etc. Not as jerkoff material, but it gets my motors going. And she loves to dress in a glamorous manner. So if she adds sexy to glamorous, it works for both of us. Fires us both up in the bedroom.

So the question then becomes her level of comfort and interest in finding some pleasure and satisfaction crossing into my kink.

Of course she knows there are so many things I do solely because she desires them, and I have learned that it makes me happy to keep her happy. I think she operates the same way, but she is not as naturally a "pleaser" and so it takes more thought and consideration for her.

And she's not as naturally adventuresome.

[slenderfish]

And the amateurs are obviously performing for the camera and their husbands. Not enjoying it.

SW: I only did it for him

Have you ever considered that she doesn't want to be treated as nothing more than an object for you to jerk off to?

Whatever she may or may not have done in the past with some letter of the alphabet, it seems that she's not willing to sign up as your personal porn star.

I'll add that I believe there is a personal belief system behind these statements; I've touched on this over and over in this thread:

1) She has a major aversion to being considered any kind of slut by anyone, especially herself.

2) She never claims her sexuality. I think she is scared of it at some level.

[Parsifal]

She has a major aversion to being considered any kind of slut by anyone, especially herself.

Aversion to being considered a slut isn't the same as aversion to being one. Making that distinction allows us to appreciate a wife's self-denial regarding what she really is and the illusion of what she is not. And because her husband is her mirror, she wants the reflection she sees of herself in you to subdue that aversion, not feed it. Sadly, this mechanism pits you in an adversary relationship with that banished side of her to which you feel a more natural alliance. On the other hand, that side of her does exist, and like it or not herself, the fact that you embrace it isn't lost on her. Not many men can love all parts of a woman in all of her devilry.

[Triggershy]

Thank you being an open book. I’m certainly learning so much from you. Class act my friend.

Thanks for sharing

[veub]

2) She never claims her sexuality. I think she is scared of it at some level.

Just because she doesn't get turned on by the same things as you doesn't mean that she's "scared" of her sexuality.

[BallSpanking]

I was thinking about Veub's apparent general disapproval towards wife sharing. If he is indeed disapproving, why bother visiting OHW?
Although there is some validity in his assumptions about HW'ing, it is far from being a monolithic group or set of experiences.
There are wives who love it and revel in it. There are wives who are disapproving and engage in HW'in resentfully to please their husbands (or so they always claim). And then there is the rest of the HW population that fall somewhere in between.

SF's comment that it is a bit of a 'tap dance' is right on point.
Attitudes toward wife sharing can/do swing from acceptance to revulsion depending on the mood and the setting.
I do not for a second believe that all HW's are sexually exploited and made to do disgusting things by their pervert husbands.
Nope, it is more generally a consensual and cooperative effort between husbands and wives.
And when I see a wife orgasming uncontrollably on her bull's cock, I am unconvinced by post coital complaints that she did not enjoy it.

[afagehi7]

I was thinking about Veub's apparent general disapproval towards wife sharing. If he is indeed disapproving, why bother visiting OHW?
Although there is some validity in his assumptions about HW'ing, it is far from being a monolithic group or set of experiences.
There are wives who love it and revel in it. There are wives who are disapproving and engage in HW'in resentfully to please their husbands (or so they always claim). And then there is the rest of the HW population that fall somewhere in between.

SF's comment that it is a bit of a 'tap dance' is right on point.
Attitudes toward wife sharing can/do swing from acceptance to revulsion depending on the mood and the setting.
I do not for a second believe that all HW's are sexually exploited and made to do disgusting things by their pervert husbands.
Nope, it is more generally a consensual and cooperative effort between husbands and wives.
And when I see a wife orgasming uncontrollably on her bull's cock, I am unconvinced by post coital complaints that she did not enjoy it.

I think fish is saying that evidence points to SW enjoying her foray into hotwifing but doesn't want to admit it to herself.

Humans who don't want to admit to themselves find flaw to center on. Don't wanna admit you enjoyed the chocolate cake so you focus on that there was too much icing on the cake despite devouring half of the cake. SW enjoyed it enough to offer her ass... Not in the heat of the moment but it was premeditated with her planning on it before the rendezvous. Now she focuses on how her fwb didn't court her as she wanted.

He just wants her to admit to herself that she liked the chocolate cake instead of focusing on the minor flaws in an otherwise delicious situation.

Just my take on things

[slenderfish]

More insight, therapist style. Of course, this is my take on what she's told me, and what I've observed over the decades.

- Her mother and father got married when the mother turned up unexpectedly pregnant with what became SW's older sister (about three years older). Unplanned pregnancy, got married because that's what people did in those days. Mother was a "good Catholic girl."

- Her mother was a self-admitted "party girl" and was not interested nor equipped to be a mother.

- SW came along, also unplanned, and essentially unwanted. The parents again did their best to manage. Father was an avid hunter and outdoorsman so threw himself into his hobbies and was gone much of the time with his buds.

- When SW was about seven years old, the mother gave up and went back to partying. Left the home and the girls with their father.

- A few years later, the father was involved with a new girlfriend and decided he wanted to be with her, many states away. Negotiated to get the mother back into the home for the girls and he left the girls behind, for the new life and new wife. She said they were always struggling financially. Her mother still struggles financially.

- The mother continued her partying lifestyle and so SW ended up latching on to a girlfriend's family for stability and support (and balanced meals from time to time). A nice Jewish family.

- By SW's early teen years, her mother ended up with a real creep of a boyfriend who would stalk her mom during periods when they were broken up. The mom was essentially afraid all the time of what this guy would do next. He would disable her car in the darkness of night, so that the mother would have no choice but to call him to come help fix it, etc.

- He crept around the house and was sometimes there without the mother around. The girls felt unsafe.

- He made a move on SW's older sister one night, according to the sister. Teenager time frame. But he was scared off. Sister went off to college soon after, leaving SW alone.

- SW in her young teenage years got up courage to tell him off and he grabbed her arms (or something). She ran out of the house screaming and when he came after her, she hit him in self defense. The police arrived and he accused her of battery. The police did not want to get involved so admonished her to behave, or else they would have to investigate the battery allegation. And departed.

- SW hated this guy and still hates him (for good reason). And her mother is still with him!

She was a young beautiful blonde who realized at a young age that men looked at her in a way she did not understand and decided she disliked.

Some the behaviors that are embedded in her are as follows:

- She cannot enter a quiet house without anxiety, and has to know who is there immediately upon entering (even if just me).

- SW continues to refuse to have anything to do with her father who "abandoned her" when she needed him the most.

- She learned to use her beauty for positive things (is very successful in sales, etc.) but she automatically avoids adding sexiness to her look, to avoid undue attention from men or women who may think she's "that kind of girl" etc.

- She has an OCD behavior from time to time, where she has to wash her face. I can tell when her anxiety is up when she washes her face much more than usual, unaware.

She notes that she's been in so much individual therapy (since her youth but before I met her) that she's over it.

Part of the reason I'm really supporting and pushing the couples therapist/therapy is to perhaps help SW realize that this is all intertwined into her way of being, and it has impressions on every aspect of her life. Including how she relates to me, including sexually.

And I do have my stuff.

Why not go for self-awareness and self improvement? With a therapist who is sex-positive and apparently able to take it all in without stumbling over the hotwife element?

[subtoall]

JFC. Of course she's afraid of her own sexuality. She's suffered nothing but trauma and abandonment due to sex. I suspect there's a lot of healing yet for her to do. Proceed carefully.

[afagehi7]

Why not go for self-awareness and self improvement? With a therapist who is sex-positive and apparently able to take it all in without stumbling over the hotwife element?

I commend this. I did therapy for a year or two but don't feel like I really got much from it. Well credentialed therapist.

Keep doing what you're doing. I think sw isn't as self aware as you so it's going to help. Pervious therapists probably didn't get into the sexual elements. I think she's afraid of becoming her mother. Those of us with toxic backgrounds are afraid of becoming our parents.

[veub]

I was thinking about Veub's apparent general disapproval towards wife sharing. If he is indeed disapproving, why bother visiting OHW?
Although there is some validity in his assumptions about HW'ing, it is far from being a monolithic group or set of experiences.
There are wives who love it and revel in it. There are wives who are disapproving and engage in HW'in resentfully to please their husbands (or so they always claim). And then there is the rest of the HW population that fall somewhere in

I don't approve or disapprove of it. If both people want it and enjoy it, fine.
I just think it is ridiculous for him believe his wife s "scared" because she doesn't share his fantasy.

[swl2608]

Hopefully, the therapy sessions over time will bring some positive effects to SW's confidence and self awareness as you say SF
It's a great thing to do anyway with her, but I still don't think it will flick a switch that ignites her 'wanting' to engage in an open/shared manner in that she is keen to explore with you as a pairing, the sourcing and arranging of a regular suitor (or suitors). She's clearly not driven that way psychologically and unless she buys into the concept with you and some shared middle ground is found, you're both not only on separate pages, you're in different books It certainly is a tap dance I agree.
However, SF already has his dancing shoes on. SW isn't looking for hers right now!

We're all still rooting for you guys to find a happy way to get there though

[Nfhw]

I have enjoyed following your story and have become very fond of both you and SW. Exceptional people.

The therapist seems to heading down the right track and asking the right questions. My experience is that good therapists are very hard to find. I've often noticed that they often seemed to have been attracted to the profession in hopes of solving their own problems. Yours seems to me to be exceptionally good at unraveling sexual difficulties. Be patient, you may have found the key to opening the door to your relationship sexual happiness. But probably not at the pace you were hoping for..

SW has had a rough childhood and had plenty of modeling and experiences that could have misswired her self image and sexual thinking. You are being amazingly supportive. My bet this will have a happy ending.

[Marco]

JFC. Of course she's afraid of her own sexuality. She's suffered nothing but trauma and abandonment due to sex. I suspect there's a lot of healing yet for her to do. Proceed carefully.

I completely agree with this comment: if I were you SF I would concentrate and helping your wife overcome this hard past and only IF and WHEN that goal is achieved, think about your kink taking in consideration that she might never share it.
Priority goes to her healing.

[Dharmadude]

Wow. That background would be an awful lot of trauma to overcome and allow a free sexuality to flow. I say this as my wife has a traumatic background as well.

Early on, we both shared with each other our childhood traumas. These can be expressed later in life in so many different ways, even many, many years later. I feel I have dealt with it in one way, she in another, her sister in a different way altogether. But I am no counselor at all. I have just seen it close up.

I have my vision for our HW journey. My wife says she agrees, but I think she might just be telling me what I want to hear. Then, occasionally, out of the blue, she will allow herself to let go and indulge. It is almost always when she is traveling and away from “normal life.” I prefer it to be more of a LS than a vacation happening but I am grateful for whenever she feels free and can be her true self, however that may be.

In the end, I always am encouraging and tell her I accept whatever path she chooses, even if there is no more non-monogamy. I would not like this lifestyle nearly as much. Ethical NM is exciting to me, but, I choose her so whatever she is comfortable with.

As I said, I am no counselor but I remember many pages back where you detailed a conversation and she, basically, said she wanted a NM lifestyle but without the sharing amongst you two. Perhaps this is how her background is presenting itself, as a fear of the intimacy you two share.

I think you have shown that you are patient and encouraging for her to find her path. The counseling can only help with every aspect of this. I am only trying to offer thoughts of someone in a similar situation, and hopefully, find answers that will also help us.

[armyguyot1]

Welcome to the forum nfhw.

[Mr Mrs Cream]

TP: What do you watch that puts you in the mood?

SW: The Notebook when Ryan Gosling.....

===========

TP: (smiles) Okay, then SW, how did it go?

SW: I only did it for him.

TP: Was there any part of it you enjoyed?

SW: (sheepishly, little smile) Well, I suppose but the guy got more out of it than I did. Also that he wanted me.

TP: Let's return to this subject somewhere down the road. Good to know it's in the background.

Thank you for sharing such details and facts about her life.
Looks like she has not so many possiblity to focus on sex when younger.
And now when she is let say safe, you are trying to take her in something which she is afraid to lose you.

If she likes a romantic novels etc. could you ask her what does she think about a weekend in hotel/spa with another man?

[Whosbeensleeping]

Ultimately I think sharing in exploration and growth is the goal, and by opening up dialogue with the help of a counselor you are doing just that, so bravo and keep it up!

[Fotodom]

Wow SF, that is a lot of stuff she has had to go through; now your story makes more sense I think. This part;

Why not go for self-awareness and self improvement? With a therapist who is sex-positive and apparently able to take it all in without stumbling over the hotwife element?

may be because now,she knows where she is, and what she has had to live through to get here, (smart good man, nice comfy life, etc) and changing is or may be, not terribly appealing to her. I think in a way that what you seem to want presents a possible danger to her, consciously or not.

Now that I know some of her backstory, I have a much more tender appreciation for her, and I hope kindness is the foremost approach to her.

Thanks so much for sharing.