Couldn't get it right in 44 years

[Mkindling]

Yes it changed me…I realized I had built a shell around my heart. I couldn’t be honest with myself. I seek to find honesty within to answer truthfully now. It’s a real process for me. Takes effort to break old habits.

[venus-can99]

Yes it changed me…I realized I had built a shell around my heart. I couldn’t be honest with myself. I seek to find honesty within to answer truthfully now. It’s a real process for me. Takes effort to break old habits.

Hope things are well with you and T and as the shell around your heart crumbles and with a supportive hubby like T things are progressing.

[Happyjohnson]

To me it has been amazing just how our upbringing has had such an impact on our lives, its obvious why!
If I could discuss my wife's mind set and break down her wall about sex and attitudes, I and I'm sure she would be a lot happier in our lives, especially now that retirement has happened and we are empty nesters!
I have asked her, on numerous occasions about her sexual fantasies - "I don't have any" - end of conversation!, next subject!
I have attempted on numerous occasions to break through that wall to no avail! I take my hat off to you "T" for being persistent and getting through Marion's walls, well done and look how much happier you both are! (do you give lessons?)

[BB-Kink]

I think "Late's " reply below seemed to be in response from one of your earlier posts about, "NO", that was more of a kneejerk automatic no that should have been overcome.

I reread the entire thread just now. One significant lesson we all struggle with in our daily lives is to keep striving to become better at learning or guessing if or when we should push past that no, accept it, try another time, or just spend more effort to learn what the right answer should have been. Then next, take the right action, now or later. And if it occurs often and it is important, then fix it or at least don't ignore working on it.

The effects of often accepting that no for decades radically affected your relationship, and mine as well. Our job in any relationship is to push past whatever words are spoken, and find out what the answer really should be, regardless of what was said, or thought they meant at the time. Being that perceptive, and then paying the price in both risk and time to push past that to discover what the answer would have been without the barriers that were erected, (no pun here, BTW is sometimes costly and we avoid it.

Some couples have supposed rules that, "if you want it and ask, sex will never be denied". I think that is impractical, too imposing on the other person, and is never a rule that is followed very closely. OTOH, I think it is imperative to push past the "no", and first discover what the real reason is, or would be, without the impulse driven barrier. Then, go the next step and take whatever action is appropriate for this instance, or over a long period of time, and fix what's broken, (if anything).

I think there is a lot to learn here in this thread, so I hope it is flagged as "please preserve" and move to where it won't be automatically axed. Maybe there's an admin function that would allow you to take a snapshot of a thread that includes all the meta-data, that could be "restored" intact from that point in time.

"At that moment I was struck with the realization that M didn't know the real M. She had learned to lie to herself, to deny her wants. "It's like you've built a shell around your heart. You need to connect with your genuine inner self, and believe it", I said."

There were several things you have mentioned that really struck home to me, but this is the most significant one. I don't know if it a breakthrough moment for US (my wife and me), but I do know that it is a breakthrough for me. I have just started to pursue it with her, so we'll have to see where it goes. Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to document your story, and share it with this community, with me.

Late

[Restarting]

To me it has been amazing just how our upbringing has had such an impact on our lives, its obvious why!
If I could discuss my wife's mind set and break down her wall about sex and attitudes, I and I'm sure she would be a lot happier in our lives, especially now that retirement has happened and we are empty nesters!
I have asked her, on numerous occasions about her sexual fantasies - "I don't have any" - end of conversation!, next subject!
I have attempted on numerous occasions to break through that wall to no avail! I take my hat off to you "T" for being persistent and getting through Marion's walls, well done and look how much happier you both are! (do you give lessons?)

When you say attitudes, does that mean what she wants (as opposed to her acceptance of other people's choices)?

I've seen people that feel like they earn "extra credit" by denying themselves their wants. To me, those people are rewarding their self-deception (I don't want what I want). Denying fantasies can be part of the self-deception. Do you think your wife does that? If so, does she deny her non-sexual desires, too?

In our case, M, not me, broke through the wall. If anything, I helped her recognize that the wall existed. But it was her wall. IMO, only she could tear it down (and consciously work to keep it that way). She learned to trust herself.

Upbringing consists of learning and adhering to rules established by older generations. We are taught to respect our elders. The great news is that as retirees, we are now the elders. We set our rules. We are the people the younger crowd shakes their heads about the way we act, but realize they can do nothing and we are accountable to nobody (as long as it's legal). It's less of justifying why I might do something and more, why not do it. Time is running short.

So I hope your wife gets on board and appreciates the benefits that senior citizens enjoy, while she still can.

Empty nesters: that means you can walk around the house naked! And yes, we are so much happier now!

[Late]

"At that moment I was struck with the realization that M didn't know the real M. She had learned to lie to herself, to deny her wants. "It's like you've built a shell around your heart. You need to connect with your genuine inner self, and believe it", I said."

There were several things you have mentioned that really struck home to me, but this is the most significant one. I don't know if it a breakthrough moment for US (my wife and me), but I do know that it is a breakthrough for me. I have just started to pursue it with her, so we'll have to see where it goes. Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to document your story, and share it with this community, with me.

Late

Late, it warms my heart to know our experience might help you both achieve higher levels of happiness, thank you. I remember feeling a rush when that realization hit me. It was monumental when M validated my view and reset her compass. You can't fix a problem if you can't define it.

I hope, if your wife has formed a similar shell, that she recognizes it, believes in her core that it exists, and that any desire she has to change it, comes from deep within herself. With focus, her habit of maintaining that barrier around her heart can be broken.

I'm confident your communication can deepen your understanding of each other. Please share how your conversations with your wife go.

You asked how our conversations are going. I don't know where we will end up because I now focus on making sure she is thinking about what she REALLY wants, not what she has been taught to want. She is enjoying life more, and I am getting enjoyment from her enjoyment. Will we ever end up out of the wannabe category? I don't know, and don't really care. Wherever we end up, as long as it's where she truly wants to be, will be okay with me.

BB-kink mentioned in response to my comment that he agreed we just have to push through the "NO", that we need to overcome it. I don't know if that was what I had in mind when I said it, but I do agree with it. I think that once we get past the "NO" we have to be ready to accept whatever we end up with.

In our case, I don't think we are past the "NO" stage at this point, but we are far enough into it that we both are seeing some light at the other end. Both of us are enjoying what we are seeing. It will be interesting to find out if we are both seeing the same thing, or if we will both be happy with what the other one is seeing, feeling, thinking, doing.

Thanks again.
Late

[Happyjohnson]

Yes we walk around naked after showering (and many other activities we still enjoy!) being empty nesters.

Many of the things she will not accept and or even think about are those that have been foisted upon us by convention and her very conservative upbringing!
She still looks on my sexual kinks as being very abnormal and wants nothing to do with them or even think about them. I have suggested, after we did a couple swap, many many years ago that we take this further to no avail and now I dare not even mention it- ever!

Such is life and I think its too late now to change her mind set, though I keep subtly trying- maybe no so subtle on my behalf!

How are you M and T getting on?: Have things continued to improve and more relaxed and open!

[Restarting]

"At that moment I was struck with the realization that M didn't know the real M. She had learned to lie to herself, to deny her wants. "It's like you've built a shell around your heart. You need to connect with your genuine inner self, and believe it", I said."

There were several things you have mentioned that really struck home to me, but this is the most significant one. I don't know if it a breakthrough moment for US (my wife and me), but I do know that it is a breakthrough for me. I have just started to pursue it with her, so we'll have to see where it goes. Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to document your story, and share it with this community, with me.

Late

Late, it warms my heart to know our experience might help you both achieve higher levels of happiness, thank you. I remember feeling a rush when that realization hit me. It was monumental when M validated my view and reset her compass. You can't fix a problem if you can't define it.

I hope, if your wife has formed a similar shell, that she recognizes it, believes in her core that it exists, and that any desire she has to change it, comes from deep within herself. With focus, her habit of maintaining that barrier around her heart can be broken.

I'm confident your communication can deepen your understanding of each other. Please share how your conversations with your wife go.

You asked how our conversations are going. I don't know where we will end up because I now focus on making sure she is thinking about what she REALLY wants, not what she has been taught to want. She is enjoying life more, and I am getting enjoyment from her enjoyment. Will we ever end up out of the wannabe category? I don't know, and don't really care. Wherever we end up, as long as it's where she truly wants to be, will be okay with me.

BB-kink mentioned in response to my comment that he agreed we just have to push through the "NO", that we need to overcome it. I don't know if that was what I had in mind when I said it, but I do agree with it. I think that once we get past the "NO" we have to be ready to accept whatever we end up with.

In our case, I don't think we are past the "NO" stage at this point, but we are far enough into it that we both are seeing some light at the other end. Both of us are enjoying what we are seeing. It will be interesting to find out if we are both seeing the same thing, or if we will both be happy with what the other one is seeing, feeling, thinking, doing.

Thanks again.
Late

I had to ponder BB-kinks message too. It sounds to me that you are both on solid footing and are taking the right approach in your journey. I'm feeling great for both of you!

[Restarting]

I think "Late's " reply below seemed to be in response from one of your earlier posts about, "NO", that was more of a kneejerk automatic no that should have been overcome.

I reread the entire thread just now. One significant lesson we all struggle with in our daily lives is to keep striving to become better at learning or guessing if or when we should push past that no, accept it, try another time, or just spend more effort to learn what the right answer should have been. Then next, take the right action, now or later. And if it occurs often and it is important, then fix it or at least don't ignore working on it.

The effects of often accepting that no for decades radically affected your relationship, and mine as well. Our job in any relationship is to push past whatever words are spoken, and find out what the answer really should be, regardless of what was said, or thought they meant at the time. Being that perceptive, and then paying the price in both risk and time to push past that to discover what the answer would have been without the barriers that were erected, (no pun here, BTW is sometimes costly and we avoid it.

Some couples have supposed rules that, "if you want it and ask, sex will never be denied". I think that is impractical, too imposing on the other person, and is never a rule that is followed very closely. OTOH, I think it is imperative to push past the "no", and first discover what the real reason is, or would be, without the impulse driven barrier. Then, go the next step and take whatever action is appropriate for this instance, or over a long period of time, and fix what's broken, (if anything).

I think there is a lot to learn here in this thread, so I hope it is flagged as "please preserve" and move to where it won't be automatically axed. Maybe there's an admin function that would allow you to take a snapshot of a thread that includes all the meta-data, that could be "restored" intact from that point in time.

"At that moment I was struck with the realization that M didn't know the real M. She had learned to lie to herself, to deny her wants. "It's like you've built a shell around your heart. You need to connect with your genuine inner self, and believe it", I said."

There were several things you have mentioned that really struck home to me, but this is the most significant one. I don't know if it a breakthrough moment for US (my wife and me), but I do know that it is a breakthrough for me. I have just started to pursue it with her, so we'll have to see where it goes. Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to document your story, and share it with this community, with me.

Late

BB, I read your post over a dozen times. I was unsure if I understood your intent with this sentence:

"Our job in any relationship is to push past whatever words are spoken, and find out what the answer really should be, regardless of what was said, or thought they meant at the time…"

It seemed aligned with my thinking but I wasn't sure. I finally determined that I agree when including the proviso that "what the answer really should be" is what the other truly believes, not necessarily what you think the answer should be.

Maybe it was the "thought they meant" part that threw me off. Does that mean an immediate reaction without adequate introspection for a true response?

I think we're saying the same thing. Total respect for your viewpoint if we disagree, though.

[Restarting]

Yes we walk around naked after showering (and many other activities we still enjoy!) being empty nesters.

Many of the things she will not accept and or even think about are those that have been foisted upon us by convention and her very conservative upbringing!
She still looks on my sexual kinks as being very abnormal and wants nothing to do with them or even think about them. I have suggested, after we did a couple swap, many many years ago that we take this further to no avail and now I dare not even mention it- ever!

Such is life and I think its too late now to change her mind set, though I keep subtly trying- maybe no so subtle on my behalf!

How are you M and T getting on?: Have things continued to improve and more relaxed and open!

Couple swap? Tell me more!

M and I are doing great, thanks for asking. M has had 3 more dates with Donald. He seems conflicted with the thought of extramarital sex. M enjoys time with him but he hasn't responded with sexual interest even on our couch with M after their dates.

Derek moved 100 miles away and seemed to be implying things were over. Last week he tried to arrange a meetup (at our house for the first time). But a crew was working in the house into the evening and quashed that chance. Derek now expects to be in town every other Thursday. I have little doubt their fun will continue.

Mike has visited twice since the latest update and we had lots of fun!

M met a new guy, Ned, and liked him. He took her to his house but M thought it was time to go, so Ned drove her back to the bar after copping a couple of feels of her tits on their way out of the house. A few days later M was at his house and fucked in the presence of Ned's dog, who at one point licked her. I never expected M would participate in a MFD. Anyway, he may be a one and done since he has maintained radio silence since they last parted. M enjoyed the experience.

Life is good.

[Gulfcpl]

I’ve just finished reading your account to this point. I give you and M all the credit in the world for sticking it out even during the roughest of times. Unfortunately, we live in an age of disposable marriages, some that are not fixable but many that could be with effort. It may have taken 40 plus years to reach this level of bliss but imagine the level of agony had you not tried. My hat is off to you both.

[Restarting]

I’ve just finished reading your account to this point. I give you and M all the credit in the world for sticking it out even during the roughest of times. Unfortunately, we live in an age of disposable marriages, some that are not fixable but many that could be with effort. It may have taken 40 plus years to reach this level of bliss but imagine the level of agony had you not tried. My hat is off to you both.

Thank you, from M and me, for your kind message.

Maybe the disposable age is waning? I get the impression people today are being more careful in their decisions to get married in the first place. Maybe these more thoughtful couples also recognize the value in trying to hold together a potentially great marriage? One can hope. (On the other hand, I applaud those in toxic marriages, that take charge of their lives and do what's necessary to improve the situations for all involved.)

M seemed to agree with my reaction to the word, "agony". While I would have mourned the loss of a 45-year marriage, had that been the outcome, I'm not sure I would have agonized over it. We had already succeeded in parenting, so we had that whether we stayed together or not. In our case, the decision to move forward together was going to be mutual or we would have kept trying.

So, while I didn't know at the time how our future would unfold, in retrospect, it would be absolutely agonizing to know we missed out on the unimaginable closeness and happiness that we couldn't comprehend then, and now enjoy.

Thanks for reminding me how great life is!

[BB-Kink]

BB, I read your post over a dozen times. I was unsure if I understood your intent with this sentence:

"Our job in any relationship is to push past whatever words are spoken, and find out what the answer really should be, regardless of what was said, or thought they meant at the time…"

It seemed aligned with my thinking but I wasn't sure. I finally determined that I agree when including the proviso that "what the answer really should be" is what the other truly believes, not necessarily what you think the answer should be.

Maybe it was the "thought they meant" part that threw me off. Does that mean an immediate reaction without adequate introspection for a true response?

I think we're saying the same thing. Total respect for your viewpoint if we disagree, though.

The nuances are close enough to make it difficult for me to determine if I even agree with myself sometimes. But, I think you brought up an important issue: Should you or should you not overcome someone's sometimes very strong reluctance to something you believe would be good for that person, or even just benefit an unrelated party completely.

In personal interactions, overcoming the other's will through arguments or force must be a judgement call. In some cases, it's our obligation and responsibility to overrule, and in other cases, inappropriate. In most cases though, it is both -- Our responsibility to always do our best to influence, but only sometimes overrule the other person, or sometimes give in and defer to them.

We can identity many instances of imposing your will because that will be beneficial. Sometimes the wisest action is to allow others to "make their own mistakes and reap the pain of those decisions", after being heard. If your an outside consultant, your job is different: You must get your reasoning conveyed to the client, and be OK with whatever that person decides.

Children are born pretty stupid, and good judgement is a skill that is learned and never mastered. I think it's often the obligation of those with more judgement and experience to impose, or apply an extreme amount of influence to convince someone to kill their own determinations and accept yours. Imposing your will is an obligation of a parent, then less so as they mature.

In business, I can assure you that you will almost always have a massive failure, if you don't learn the skill of seeking out these contrary positions. Of course in most instances if we are in charge, it is still our final decision. But, if you don't allow other's judgement to prevail, or at least to thoroughly reconsider precisely if the other's advice was best, you can not, and you will not make wise decisions.

Consider Trumps last days of the NYC trial. I'm sure he'd love to testify right now, and he likely would, if he were solely deciding. Although of course he will make that final decision, he won't (likely) overrule his team's decision. Tactically for the legal team, he's obviously way ahead with little to gain. Trump is impulsive to a definite fault at times, and I'm sure it must "feel or seem right" to testify. If he did, he would look, and from a legal perspective would be a fool. However there might be other political reasons for doing just that, even with the possible damage. That's the rub--His legal team can't easily advise him with that perspective.

Over time, he's learned to defer his own (legal) opinions often enough to prevent the nearly certain resulting damage. There's another side though: His attorneys didn't become great by mastering risk. That's Trump's skill, and few of his legal team has, or ever will be making decisions that result in their own personal risk or reward. If that's not your skill, you won't like playing, and any loss will likely disable you for a time.

Trump or any professional poker risk takers have mastered winning enough of the time, and accepting the inevitable losses without disabling them. Why are only a small group of pro poker players always at the "last table"? It isn't their math skills to accurately calculate the odds. They've mastered risk their own reactions to the results of that risk. (Look up "Poker Bad Beat".)

Seeking out and carefully listening to contrary opinions is a required skill of any business person, without which, you'll quickly go broke. Learning when to take that advice against your own judgment, or to go rogue do what you instinctively think is better, is the skill of a great CEO. Few CEOs are great at not just managing risk, but managing their sanity when the results turn out badly.

Overcoming a "no" or a "yes" through persuasion, coercion, or deferring to their decision is a certain risk. The results of that risk will provide great benefits or loss. Learn how to manage those risks as best you can, for the best outcomes.

[armyguyot1]

I hadn't read this for some time but caught up yesterday and this morning. We are early 70s and having more and better sex than ever. We too have been together since teens but now with her unable to get pregnant and still having a huge sex drive we are having FUN. We can't do it as often but it is certainly better. Much better. Axious to hear more.

[Restarting]

BB, I read your post over a dozen times. I was unsure if I understood your intent with this sentence:

"Our job in any relationship is to push past whatever words are spoken, and find out what the answer really should be, regardless of what was said, or thought they meant at the time…"

It seemed aligned with my thinking but I wasn't sure. I finally determined that I agree when including the proviso that "what the answer really should be" is what the other truly believes, not necessarily what you think the answer should be.

Maybe it was the "thought they meant" part that threw me off. Does that mean an immediate reaction without adequate introspection for a true response?

I think we're saying the same thing. Total respect for your viewpoint if we disagree, though.

The nuances are close enough to make it difficult for me to determine if I even agree with myself sometimes. But, I think you brought up an important issue: Should you or should you not overcome someone's sometimes very strong reluctance to something you believe would be good for that person, or even just benefit an unrelated party completely.

In personal interactions, overcoming the other's will through arguments or force must be a judgement call. In some cases, it's our obligation and responsibility to overrule, and in other cases, inappropriate. In most cases though, it is both -- Our responsibility to always do our best to influence, but only sometimes overrule the other person, or sometimes give in and defer to them.

We can identity many instances of imposing your will because that will be beneficial. Sometimes the wisest action is to allow others to "make their own mistakes and reap the pain of those decisions", after being heard. If your an outside consultant, your job is different: You must get your reasoning conveyed to the client, and be OK with whatever that person decides.

Children are born pretty stupid, and good judgement is a skill that is learned and never mastered. I think it's often the obligation of those with more judgement and experience to impose, or apply an extreme amount of influence to convince someone to kill their own determinations and accept yours. Imposing your will is an obligation of a parent, then less so as they mature.

In business, I can assure you that you will almost always have a massive failure, if you don't learn the skill of seeking out these contrary positions. Of course in most instances if we are in charge, it is still our final decision. But, if you don't allow other's judgement to prevail, or at least to thoroughly reconsider precisely if the other's advice was best, you can not, and you will not make wise decisions.

Consider Trumps last days of the NYC trial. I'm sure he'd love to testify right now, and he likely would, if he were solely deciding. Although of course he will make that final decision, he won't (likely) overrule his team's decision. Tactically for the legal team, he's obviously way ahead with little to gain. Trump is impulsive to a definite fault at times, and I'm sure it must "feel or seem right" to testify. If he did, he would look, and from a legal perspective would be a fool. However there might be other political reasons for doing just that, even with the possible damage. That's the rub--His legal team can't easily advise him with that perspective.

Over time, he's learned to defer his own (legal) opinions often enough to prevent the nearly certain resulting damage. There's another side though: His attorneys didn't become great by mastering risk. That's Trump's skill, and few of his legal team has, or ever will be making decisions that result in their own personal risk or reward. If that's not your skill, you won't like playing, and any loss will likely disable you for a time.

Trump or any professional poker risk takers have mastered winning enough of the time, and accepting the inevitable losses without disabling them. Why are only a small group of pro poker players always at the "last table"? It isn't their math skills to accurately calculate the odds. They've mastered risk their own reactions to the results of that risk. (Look up "Poker Bad Beat".)

Seeking out and carefully listening to contrary opinions is a required skill of any business person, without which, you'll quickly go broke. Learning when to take that advice against your own judgment, or to go rogue do what you instinctively think is better, is the skill of a great CEO. Few CEOs are great at not just managing risk, but managing their sanity when the results turn out badly.

Overcoming a "no" or a "yes" through persuasion, coercion, or deferring to their decision is a certain risk. The results of that risk will provide great benefits or loss. Learn how to manage those risks as best you can, for the best outcomes.

After re-reading your reply a number of times BB, I've concluded that I agree with your position 100% (it obviously takes me awhile)

Thanks for presenting it from various angles!

[Bull4Oldrwives]

All of my relationships in the last 20 years have been with wives over 60. I think the reason that they have been so fulfilling is that older wives have the emotional bandwidth to accommodate multiple relationships. They seem to move between the wife-boyfriend,wife-husband, and wife-boyfriend-husband relationship with ease. Certainly, many are at a stage of life where they are more comfortable in their own skin.

Part of this is because many of them have spent the last 30 years managing the family circus taking care of everyone else's needs. So when they have the opportunity to have a situation that is all about her emotional and sexual fulfillment they revel in it, once they embrace it. Having had the privilege of escorting a number of wives across the threshold of pleasure into this lifestyle none of them has ever regretted it. I don't think that is in any way a reflection on me.

Of course, none of this can happen if the wife cannot get her arms around the potential of this lifestyle and many have a lot of old tapes running in their heads. Those issues can take a lot of time and patience to resolve but as this thread reveals, it can be done. Yes, there are also issues of not feeling attractive but that is where an experienced, for lack of a better term, Bull can make a huge difference. It is an incredible experience to bring an older wife into the lifestyle and share with her the reawakening of love and passion and see the radiance begin to appear in her. My experience is that once a wife gets to the toes in the water stage constant communication between the Bull and husband can be crucial for a successful outcum. I have always believed that the husband/cuck and I are partners in her fulfillment.

And while it can be a long and circuitous journey for the husbands trying to coax her along I have only encountered one who who had regrets but that was only because he went to fast. Slow but sure with love seems to be the best approach for both the husband AND the prospective Bull in bringing a wife into the lifestyle. It is not uncommon for this to be a multi-year journey but for those who have been successful there is rarely regret. Just my opinion.

[Restarting]

I hadn't read this for some time but caught up yesterday and this morning. We are early 70s and having more and better sex than ever. We too have been together since teens but now with her unable to get pregnant and still having a huge sex drive we are having FUN. We can't do it as often but it is certainly better. Much better. Axious to hear more.

Hello Armyguy,
We'll probably post on another thread how things have gone since our relationship has gotten on track. Less frequency with other men, less than MKindling would like.

It seems like the right time to archive this thread, if possible.

Can you help with that?

[Mrshappyfam74]

Really enjoyed reading this. Such wonderful introspection and cause for pause as I read it. Thank you for sharing your stories, T and M

[Mikay19]

Thank you for sharing your story, it was intriguing. When we write our stories, regardless of if we post them, can really help with healing. I am very happy to hear you two are not just doing well but have transcended into a more communicative relationship and a far deeper understanding of each other. I certainly felt your pain while ready and it did elevate my heart rate, which is a lot like this journey we are all on.