Samanthasman wrote:She does not want to hurt me. Part of the lying comes from her unilaterally not telling me things so as to not hurt me. When she says "my way or the high way" (not her exact words) it's a temporary and emotional reaction, and she always has retreated as emotions cool.zorro wrote:SM, as you know, from the start I had hoped that Sam and you could make a good go of this. I also share in the delight of having my loved one fuck other men, which she loves to do. I was troubled when I first heard of the first triggers of uncompassionate flipping you off when she said in the face of hearing your discomfort with her fucking Bill so much, "You are just going to have to live with it." That was not a loving response.
Because I have my poly side, I personally would be more comfortable if R were loving another man. I do not feel that love is a zero-sum game. Your hot button is the thought that Sam will love another man enough to leave you; in that event, you would label yourself a loser. That is a potent brain trigger for fear, resentment, and shutting down. But it still is only a thought. I am not so worried about Sam's having fond or even love feelings for Bill. I am more focused on how much she loves you. That "just going to have to live with it" comment was not loving. Not kind. Not thinking of you. And her lying speaks ill of her personal character. As I said in one of my posts, if Sam continues to see Bill and sneak around with it, you would see her personal character more clearly. Sam may be physically and personally charming, but there is a dark streak in there that you have to come to understand more deeply. Yes, everyone has a dark side, and Sam seems to have hers. You both need to know what that is about. That dark side has taken a potentially beautiful, erotic experience and twisted it into something disheartening.
I think Sam and you have a lot more to keep talking about. Until you reach a level of comfort with her, I would definitely not give in to her manipulation to let her fuck Bill and keep you in her pocket. The best definition of manipulation, in my book, is someone trying to get you to do what you don't want to do. It is complicated because your HW hubby brain wants her to fuck other men (and I do get that) but you feel afraid of losing her. And a huge part of you at this time does not want her to fuck Bill. Her blanket reassuring words do not assure you. You are not really trusting her, so her begging you to trust her is going to fall flat. Those are the emotional facts I hear.
I don't know where this interchange is going to lead. I cannot tell you, as some have here, to "put your foot down" or whatever. You need to follow your gut with this one. Something inside you is telling you there is something wrong here, and none of us really know what it is yet. But you must honor what you feel.
So, my perhaps unsolicited counsel is to keep talking with Sam. Explore what led her to say the hurtful and cold and deceitful things she did. Both of you need to understand her much more deeply. As the layers peel back and you see Sam more realistically and honestly, as you come to know the truth about her, you will know what to do. And I certainly do not know what that will be. In the meantime, do not ignore your feelings and give in to her manipulations. You will be disappointed in yourself, and at some level Sam would be disappointed in you too if you did. It is fair for her to ask for what she wants. But with freedom go responsibilities. If your experience teaches all of us here, a HW does not just get freedom to fuck and expand her sexual life, she has to deepen her commitment and obligations to her marriage and her husband's feelings. If she does, she may feel a deeper love than she ever has before.
Z
My big issue now is trust. I can forgive anything but lying. If she says "I fucked bill, I'm sorry" I could forgive that easier than finding out about a lie.
I've asked her to double down on her commitment to honesty. To her credit and her fault she admits "I don't know if I really can even trust myself to be 100% honest with you.. I mean I said I would be and I was not.. So I just don't know if making more commitments that I have proven myself incapable of keeping makes sense". I tell her "I appreciate that honesty, but where does that leave us...?"
She admits she's not sure how to proceed, but she wants to keep the family together and she wants to find a way to keep bill in her life.
I'll only make this comment one more time, you and your wife need to see a therapist. Look at the comments people are making here, and that you yourself make. People are questioning Sam's maturity, her commitment, comparing her to an addict and even whether she has a personality disorder! You are vacillating, while to your credit, trying to defend her. It's great that you are having talks and you are getting some very good advice here, but a neutral, trained professional would come in right handy about now! A therapist is there not just to facilitate the conversation, but also to be a reality check and to try to prevent either party from manipulating the other one. If you are even thinking about divorce, you owe it to yourselves to try counseling first.
One thing that all this has made crystal clear though - Bill is a real asshole!
)
