Kill Bill...Asking wife to dump BF?!?!

[traycir]

I afraid you are going to have to say something more substantive to make your point. We are all trusting our spouses. Something that does not work.

When I say we are playing "Russian Roulette" - I mean one pull of the trigger. Usually that does not end in a gunshot, but it could.

If you could tell me why some approach you are using is safer than mine or someone else's - not that would be potentially helpful. Calling it by a different name is not substantive.[/quote]


Sorry, I shouldn't post in a hurry, it doesn't work well(I probably shouldn't post at all, lol). I don't have the decades of experience in this that a lot of people have, not much at all actually. But, I do know about relationships and I do know about safety. A very important rule about personal safety is to trust what your instincts are telling you. Whether it be on a dark street in a bad neighborhood, in combat, in the courtroom, or the boardroom, if something feels dangerous, if it looks, sounds, or even smells dangerous - then it is dangerous. If the edge of a cliff looks dicey it's probably not a good idea to stand on it. Everything you say, write about Bill implies that you feel he is dangerous to your marriage, and there seem to be warning signs that support that, yet he is still in your life. I don't know if there is a safer approach or strategy for this lifestyle, but I think it's always a good idea to back away from things that are too dangerous.

[Samanthasman]

I afraid you are going to have to say something more substantive to make your point. We are all trusting our spouses. Something that does not work.

When I say we are playing "Russian Roulette" - I mean one pull of the trigger. Usually that does not end in a gunshot, but it could.

If you could tell me why some approach you are using is safer than mine or someone else's - not that would be potentially helpful. Calling it by a different name is not substantive.


Sorry, I shouldn't post in a hurry, it doesn't work well(I probably shouldn't post at all, lol). I don't have the decades of experience in this that a lot of people have, not much at all actually. But, I do know about relationships and I do know about safety. A very important rule about personal safety is to trust what your instincts are telling you. Whether it be on a dark street in a bad neighborhood, in combat, in the courtroom, or the boardroom, if something feels dangerous, if it looks, sounds, or even smells dangerous - then it is dangerous. If the edge of a cliff looks dicey it's probably not a good idea to stand on it. Everything you say, write about Bill implies that you feel he is dangerous to your marriage, and there seem to be warning signs that support that, yet he is still in your life. I don't know if there is a safer approach or strategy for this lifestyle, but I think it's always a good idea to back away from things that are too dangerous.

Well stated...

Now, here is the deal: Everyone that is doing this is playing with fire. Everyone. I believe its ridiculous to deny that. Yes, we can debate safer protocols.

Your argument was that you believe your protocol is more safe than mine. OK, you need to be specific about that.

You say "trust your instincts". Good advice. But honestly every man's instincts should tell him that having his wife fuck another man is dangerous. If your instincts don't tell you that, you have bad instincts. It they do, welcome to OHW.

This particular thread is a deep dive into a fairly (in these circles) common scenario. My wife has a BF that she has a strong connection with. Many successful HWs will reach this point, at some point.

I've documented the details and emotions involved in navigating such a scenario. Everyone handles this scenario a little differently. Some just "let it ride". I call that playing russian roulette - and most of the time, that is both exciting and successful (there is only one bullet in six or more chambers, after all). Those stories are fun to read about - I follow several. Most end well, and everyone sort of pats each other on the back and says "wow - that was great - clearly you did it right, good job!". Occasionally, one of those stories ends badly (they take the bullet), and people say "wow, that really sucks. Sorry for your loss..." and some say "maybe you should have done XYZ instead..."

Other people shut down the relationship at first sign of risk. For those stories, there is not much to talk about, as the story ends before it even gets started. We never really get involved into those stories on OHW.

My approach is just a little different as it is something in between, Not full throttle. Not full break. I know this frustrates people across the spectrum at times as half want throttle and half want break. My attempts to manage the throttle may be futile. May be genius. I honestly don't know.

[john jasson]

I think that Samsman is continually too hung up on the prospect of Sam leaving him for someone else. Yes, she might do that but the same applies whether in the lifestyle or not. He says he is not prepared to risk his marriage but we are all doing that every day of our vanilla lives anyway. People fall out of love. We are all going to die, but we don't spend every living day fearing that inevitability because it would spoil the life that we do have. There has to be a sense of proportion.

I think the reason Sherry and I get on in the lifestyle is because we take our love as a given in that it is totally unbreakable and non-negotiable. I am not constantly working out the odds of her falling for another man and leaving because it simply isn't going to happen. I have 100% unshakeable confidence in her. Everything she says, everything she does reinforces this knowledge that I am the man for her. What she does with other men is for everyone's enjoyment but it is never going to come between us. So we don't have this constant destructive subtext of jealousy. I would be worried about far more than hotwifing if I thought I couldn't have total trust in my wife.

[Samanthasman]

SM, a few pages back you listed five things about your resentment toward Samantha's affair with Bill.

Your point #3 was, in my view, the real answer to this whole question about whether to kill Bill. You said: 'I feel like each activity should answer the questions: "how can this enhance our marriage?", "how can I make sure my husband gets his need filled?", "How do I always make this inclusive?"

1. It is NOT enhancing your marriage. It is harming it.
2. Samantha has continued to demonstrate that she has ZERO interest in this question. She gets HER need filled, and does not give a flying fuck about YOUR need.
3. To the contrary, she has done everything she can to do just the opposite of making it inclusive. She has deliberately EXCLUDED you from her affair with Bill.

I've called Samantha selfish several times regarding her obstinate refusal to even attempt to make her affair with Bill enjoyable for you.


I now rest my case.

Are these things reasonable? Would other women agree that these things are reasonable or is this somewhat selfish on my part? I mean an argument can be had that this is certainly about her pleasure and not just her doing all this for me...

[Iamtheman]

I think it's apparent that there are two very distinct mindsets on HWing. It's an "us" experience where MFM or direct viewing would be considered essential. It's a "cuck" experience where the HW makes the decisions.

In SM's case, I think that he and Samantha see it from two different sides. I don't think that either is unfair. Each of them has their own idea of how the fantasy should play out. I don't think that either should be condemned for wanting it their way.

If Samantha acquiesces to SM and says "okay, it's MFM and viewing going forward" then he lives out his version of the fantasy. Her version though dies on the vine. It's easy to say "she's getting all kinds of hot sex! she should be happy!" but if it's not her fantasy then perhaps she can take it or leave it. She may be perfectly happy with a spicy vanilla lovelife with her husband. No extras needed.

If both fantasies are going to be met though, Samantha needs to open up to SM's requests. SM, if a lover like Bill is her fantasy...hot sex, with an emotional bond, and consistency that allows for him to learn her bells and whistles so the sex gets hotter...then it's a question of determining if the fantasy actually damages the marriage.

I'm not saying that you should bring Bill back, but she wants that fantasy. Without Bill or a lover like Bill, I do think that the fantasy is one-sided. It's yours and she's just playing a part in it.

[Artimas]

If memory serves, it's always been SM's fantasy. Sam got swept up in it and enjoys it with her rules, but I don't think it's hers.

[Iamtheman]

Artimas, you make a good point and I think you are most likely right. Samantha took to HWifing like a fish to water. If not HWing she certainly excels at finding and bedding men. I think along the way, she started living her own fantasies (public sex, the variety, for more...see SM's very exciting posts on her adventures :-) ) I'm not sure that means she doesn't want to give him his fantasy, but I don't think she is letting go of her own. Hard to take something back once it's given.

[Samanthasman]

So, we have not "played" for the last week, and have been mostly just focusing on each other. Seems like it's been a little while since we've done that and it's kinda nice. We've been getting along really great!

As we "assess our situation" we've had several frank conversations about our wants and needs...

My feeling is that Samantha wants to have an unbounded sanctioned affair (wherever it might lead), and is willing to give me pictures, videos, and other fantasies in order to get what she wants. This even includes sleeping with other men to provide "balance" with her primary lover - mostly to make me more comfortable and supportive. I want her to have sex with other men, but with boundaries - limits on the level on non-sexual intimacy.

She excels at executing to the "letter of the law" (x videos per y romps, etc. - not that it's that specific) but it's obvious that she is violating the spirit of the law (limiting her non-sexual desire for one man).

We share a goal of her having frequent sex with one or more other men (multiple times a week) but have never figured out exactly how to do that in a way that we are both satisfied with.

Now, don't get us wrong - we have had some amazing adventures with this. Hottest sex in a decade! An estimated 800 orgasms, etc.! But still, we have not figured out how to sustain this in a way that we are both comfortable with.

I basically told her, we can go forward in one of 3 ways:
1) Sam takes over and does what she wants - SM is free to do what he wants. I have no idea where this would lead...
2) Kill Bill for good - nobody is happy.
3) Start doing it SM's way - Sam has refused up until now, and does not seem to want this going forward.

Interesting, Sam does not want option #1, even though that would allow her to continue to see Bill, because she is concerned that I would not be happy, and/or it might harm the marriage.

Interesting, Sam is not willing to change and try option #3.

What she really wants is for me to just be happy with her exploring an unbounded relationship with him. Going to dinners, trips, overnights, walks on the beach, whatever... Even loving him if that's where it goes. I just did not sign up for that.

What I really want is for her to want me to be an integral part of everything she does with him. Watching at times... Knowing all that is said, felt, and shared. Doing everything as an us thing.


This leaves, essentially, option #2, once again, Kill Bill. We actually both don't want that. Bill is the only lover that can give her 30 orgasms a night and is available 24/7 x 7 days a week to please her on demand. He can help us to help her achieve her full sexual potential. Nobody else comes close. However, we continue to hit an impasse and may finally be at the point where we are both tired of trying to solve an unsolvable impasse.

[BallSpanking]

#2. Kill Bill.

[Iamtheman]

SM,
I agree with several of the things you've stated. Samantha does want the affair. Samantha does not want the marriage to be affected. She'll choose you over Bill every time when it comes to love. I'm betting that option #1 scares the shit out of her. Option #3 just might not be in her sexual universe though. Whether it's between the ears or in the heart, something is blocking that path for a threesome. If MFM is the line in the sand, you may need to resign from the lifestyle for a while until her mindset changes (and it may not).

I feel like there is a fourth option that you left out. Bill seems to be the only horse in the stable that doesn't turn you on. If videos and watching are still something you enjoy and can live without the threesomes, other men could be an option. Wasn't Alex the best lover she's had? The biggest cock? And isn't he calling lately? Isn't Sid calling too? I don't know how many men Samantha has conquered in her short time as a HW, but not ALL men are so opposed to making a video (pick me! pick me!). She may just have had a run of bad luck. Maybe she needs to tailor that AshleyMadison lure to include that as something expected up front. Or start seeing more men.

[Artimas]

I understand why Sam would be unhappy with #2, but why are you? #2 is the marriage preserver, doesn't she want to realize that? And why is it the only option she wants. #s 1 & 3 are both viable and practical and don't threaten your marriage in the same way Bill does.

[Samanthasman]

SM,
I agree with several of the things you've stated. Samantha does want the affair. Samantha does not want the marriage to be affected. She'll choose you over Bill every time when it comes to love. I'm betting that option #1 scares the shit out of her. Option #3 just might not be in her sexual universe though. Whether it's between the ears or in the heart, something is blocking that path for a threesome. If MFM is the line in the sand, you may need to resign from the lifestyle for a while until her mindset changes (and it may not).

I feel like there is a fourth option that you left out. Bill seems to be the only horse in the stable that doesn't turn you on. If videos and watching are still something you enjoy and can live without the threesomes, other men could be an option. Wasn't Alex the best lover she's had? The biggest cock? And isn't he calling lately? Isn't Sid calling too? I don't know how many men Samantha has conquered in her short time as a HW, but not ALL men are so opposed to making a video (pick me! pick me!). She may just have had a run of bad luck. Maybe she needs to tailor that AshleyMadison lure to include that as something expected up front. Or start seeing more men.

Thanks for the response...

Yes, she has 3 other active guys, but none give her the magic that Bill does. I honestly think she does not really care to see the other guys, unless she also gets Bill. I even wonder if she only sees then so I continue to sanction her seeing Bill. Sid is pretty hot, but has never really engaged her non-sexually, and she finds that unfulfilling. Al, is hot, but sort of a jerk who will never be more than a FB. There is a new guy M, that she things has high potential, but is out of town and very busy. Probably only an infrequent romp. I would love her to do a deep dive with all these guys, however, I'm not sure if she will want to continue to see any of them.

My guess is that if Bill goes away, she will morn for some time, and eventually, may start things up again with some of these guys... Of course it's also more than possible she will try to find yet another Bill like relationship, and we'd be right back where we started...

She wants what she wants, and I don't know a way to get someone to want something different...

[Artimas]

Back at the beginning of this thread I suggested a 90 day separation. You rejected it out of hand, but since Sam is rejecting all your overtures of reconciling with your feelings and desires, try it. See if Bill can sustain her as well as you have over the term of your marriage. You can't be any further behind than you are now. Either that, let her be sad and terminate the HW experiment completely and maybe sometime in the future you'll both settle for MFM only.

[Samanthasman]

I understand why Sam would be unhappy with #2, but why are you? #2 is the marriage preserver, doesn't she want to realize that? And why is it the only option she wants. #s 1 & 3 are both viable and practical and don't threaten your marriage in the same way Bill does.

I don't want #2, because I really like her to be a HW, and Bill gives her frequent intense hot sex. Without Bill, HWing goes away at least for a while, and may never come back to the same level as before...

I too don't get why #2 is preferable to her than 1 or 3... I guess she is just not satisfied with 3 - she wants/needs more non-sexual intimacy than I am comfortable with. She is afraid 1 would not make me happy or might harm the marriage...

I tried to have a roll reversal conversation with her. I tell her that Bill was my gift to her, and if she gave me a gift I would have a very different mindset about it.

We have a friend, Emma, that is super hot and recently single. I said "honey, what if you said to me 'baby, I'd like you to start fucking Emma because she really wants to have intense sex with you. You can see her 3-5 times a week, and I would really really get off on that. In fact, I'd really like you to fuck her as much as possible and enjoy yourself as much as possible and cum as much as you can...can you do that for me?'" Ummm, yeah... "And would you be willing to make me a part of it - make it an us thing... Maybe occasionally having some 3-ways or letting me watch as she satisfies your every desire?" Ummm, yeah!! "And as you engage in these frequent intense hugely satisfying white-hot sexual interludes, can you take into consideration how to satisfy my needs to be involved or included knowing that mostly I just want to share in your intense sexual gratification while being assured that I'm still number one with you??"... Ummmm, absolutely!!!

I keep thinking that I would be thinking all day long "how can I make this special for Samantha so that we can all continue to enjoy this!!??"

[Samanthasman]

Back at the beginning of this thread I suggested a 90 day separation. You rejected it out of hand, but since Sam is rejecting all your overtures of reconciling with your feelings and desires, try it. See if Bill can sustain her as well as you have over the term of your marriage. You can't be any further behind than you are now. Either that, let her be sad and terminate the HW experiment completely and maybe sometime in the future you'll both settle for MFM only.

I have asked her if she has any interest in exploring something like this. She thinks this is a completely ridiculous idea.

We love each other. We have a family and business and home and life together. Bill is married... Happily he claims (and I believe that is probably true). Nobody at this stage has any interest in separating from anyone.

[Iamtheman]

SM,
I'm confused by the hypothetical you gave that included your divorced friend. Is that you answering the questions or Samantha? Is she open to an FMF with you and another woman? If she is, then...yes, that seems hypocritical not to give you an MFM. If no, then maybe she's just not wired for anything other than one-on-one sex. For that matter, have you asked her to just take one for the team and let you experience an MFM with her? Just a one time experience for the two of you without the emotional connection she might have with Bill or the other men she's involved with. It might be an eye-opener for everyone.

I think Samantha wants it all. Perfect family. Perfect business. Perfect husband. Perfect affair. She wants to have her cake and eat it too. She doesn't want to have a separation or end the marriage for Bill. She just wants 100%. And whether its 80/20, 60/40, or whatever it may be, you and Bill share a percentage of the traits that attract her. I've said it to you before. Suit and jeans. Blonde and brunette. Etc..etc... That lady wants it all.

If the three options you gave earlier are the only ones on the table. I don't see #1 or #3 working out. She won't risk losing you in the first option, and she's just not into the last as a lifestyle/fantasy.

[Samanthasman]

SM,
I'm confused by the hypothetical you gave that included your divorced friend. Is that you answering the questions or Samantha? Is she open to an FMF with you and another woman? If she is, then...yes, that seems hypocritical not to give you an MFM. If no, then maybe she's just not wired for anything other than one-on-one sex. For that matter, have you asked her to just take one for the team and let you experience an MFM with her? Just a one time experience for the two of you without the emotional connection she might have with Bill or the other men she's involved with. It might be an eye-opener for everyone.

I think Samantha wants it all. Perfect family. Perfect business. Perfect husband. Perfect affair. She wants to have her cake and eat it too. She doesn't want to have a separation or end the marriage for Bill. She just wants 100%. And whether its 80/20, 60/40, or whatever it may be, you and Bill share a percentage of the traits that attract her. I've said it to you before. Suit and jeans. Blonde and brunette. Etc..etc... That lady wants it all.

If the three options you gave earlier are the only ones on the table. I don't see #1 or #3 working out. She won't risk losing you in the first option, and she's just not into the last as a lifestyle/fantasy.

Yes, it's me answering the hypothetical questions. I had a role reversal conversation with Samantha -.saying "what would it be like if you wanted me to sleep with a woman and gave the same gift to me that I gave to you?". It's not a perfect analogy but it's a fun hypothetical

Yes, indeed, Samantha wants it all!! That's how she's wired...

[Jdotswift]

SM, you've characterized Sam as "wanting it all", which implies she's being unreasonable. That's shifting the responsibility for your impasse entirely onto her shoulders. In my opinion, you also seem to "want it all" in that you want Sam to be a hotwife, but only on your terms. That's equally unreasonable. If compromise isn't possible, maybe the two of you should hang up your hotwife spurs. Hotwifing can't be the only thing that turns the two of you on.

[WantMore]

SM, you've characterized Sam as "wanting it all", which implies she's being unreasonable. That's shifting the responsibility for your impasse entirely onto her shoulders. In my opinion, you also seem to "want it all" in that you want Sam to be a hotwife, but only on your terms. That's equally unreasonable. If compromise isn't possible, maybe the two of you should hang up your hotwife spurs. Hotwifing can't be the only thing that turns the two of you on.

So.. Is the wife and I sickos? We both feel that the only thing that turns us on is hotwifing.

We both admit, without it we have nothing!

[happygirl622]

2. Ultimately, when it comes down to it, she is MINE, period, end of discussion. Fucking is fucking, it's like her playing tennis with someone else as far as I'm concerned...but when the rubber meets the road she is mine, not his. if there is any disagreement with that, I am right, he is wrong. And that can be handled any way it needs to be. I wouldn't care about his emotions at all. And if my wife had emotions over it, we could discuss that. But if it came to a him or me type call, I guess that is on her at that point.


This is perfect, and exactly right. My husband would have said it the same way and I would be disappointed if he didn't. Its ALL about us and the FB's are all toys. We will look back in 30 years from our rocking chairs while we hold hands and say 'remember when....' but it will be with fondness and a smile for an excellent adventure together. If there is this much anxiety and stress and drama early on you may be playing the wrong game together.

Honestly, I got a bit creeped out reading how connected your wife is to Bill.

Good luck...

[Samanthasman]

SM, you've characterized Sam as "wanting it all", which implies she's being unreasonable. That's shifting the responsibility for your impasse entirely onto her shoulders. In my opinion, you also seem to "want it all" in that you want Sam to be a hotwife, but only on your terms. That's equally unreasonable. If compromise isn't possible, maybe the two of you should hang up your hotwife spurs. Hotwifing can't be the only thing that turns the two of you on.

Yes...we both "want it all"... We are both ENTJ personality types - which is an all-or-nothing personality. This is part of the attraction we have for each other. This is the fuel for the very rich lives we live together. This is the secret to our financial success together. Because most of our goals and interests are completely in sync, this is all good. All-or-nothing = all for us.

We rarely find ourselves in a situation where she wants all of something that I don't want all of. This is obviously an exception...

As we talked about this, this morning, we both concluded "this is hard". We do understand and respect each others position. We do love each other. We do want to find ways to make this all work. We also both feel like we have compromised beyond our own comfort zone for the other.

She sleeps with multiple men, makes videos, and even has let me watch live - all things she says she does not feel comfortable with, that she has done for me.

I have let her take trips, have overnights, play solo, and explore an emotional relationship - all things that I say I have not been comfortable with.

I feel like she has not done enough, and I'm sure she feels the opposite. Unless I can somehow prove she is definitively wrong, and then get her to accept that and agree to rectify it, I don't see this being resolved.

...or she could prove me to be definitively wrong.... but I do feel like I'm right and she's wrong here

[Jdotswift]

"...or she could prove me to be definitively wrong.... but I do feel like I'm right and she's wrong here"

SM, maybe that's what the two of you should be focusing on in your discussion (the feeling of being right or wrong), rather than the mechanics of her relationship with Bill. The latter conversation sounds like its reached a completely stuck place.

Best of luck in sorting it out and reaching a mutually satisfying place!

[SSQ]

There's always another guy, seriously.

When I first started out, I had the same worry that no one would please me the same way. Guess what? I found someone who was even better sexually. I'm back to the looking phase now, but I'm confident that I'll find someone who matches me well sexually again.

So that's a silly worry. So, he's an incredible sex partner. He's not irreplaceable. I also can't understand how a married guy can be available 24x7 as you described him.

And like I've said before, I really think you guys would benefit from a kink friendly counselor. When you're going around in circles is a good time to have a neutral mediator help you sort through your thoughts.

[hubbyshotwife]

ok this hotwifing is suppose to be about a husband fantasy come to life.. and the wifes fantasy of having hott sex with other men while having the saftey of having a husband at home.. the wife should do what ever the husband asks because she gets it all.. while the husband has to wait for her..if the roles were reversed wife dont like it because they dont like sharring.... well men dont either... they just want their fantasy of wife having sex with others and they enjoying the wide ride.. while the wife gets 3 or 4 lovers.. enough said on that... so to make this work she should do as husband asks and be happy that she gets something that all other women would kill for and take her place and be married to her husband... they husband that allow this are gold and us wife should treat them like it not become selfish and only think about ourselfs and make our husband cope with what we want.... please this is easy

[Samanthasman]

no offense but I can barely stand to read this anymore. It's like ground hog day. Deja vu all over again. How many times are you going to keep covering the same ground only to keep circling back and covering over and over and over again.

Good luck with whatever it is you decide not to do. Then do it anyway then question again whether you should have done it then decide not to do it again then question again whether or not you decided wrong the first second and third or fourth time and debate if you should scrap it or start all over different this time or maybe go back and do it all the same way again.

And that is pretty much precisely what you have done. Makes my head hurt.

I liked that movie. Yes, this indeed feels like that movie to us as well.

You know in the movie, when the guy was reliving the same thing over and over, it did take many times through the experience before he finally figured things out. We are going through the same thing.

We both want this to work. We actually both want her to enjoy Bill. Just like in Groundhog Day, we have tried and tried and tried making it work this way and that way and can't seem to find a solution we both want. Just like in the movie we may have a few more attempts in us, or may be ready to both pack it in with this particular story.

For example, we could try options 1,2, or 3 from previous post...

The good news is that there are only so many things left to try (I think)...